merging two teams into one

[muscatel_parent]

I am curious to know how schools merge their multiple teams into one when they go for state? It seems unfair to students and coaches who have worked hard on devices, only to know that their device will be taken away by another team member because other participant is also good at something else. Other way around too. I know many schools have 3 teams and they combine them into one going into states. Just wondering how it plays out convincing parents and left out competitive students.

[John Richardsim]

I am curious to know how schools merge their multiple teams into one when they go for state? It seems unfair to students and coaches who have worked hard on devices, only to know that their device will be taken away by another team member because other participant is also good at something else. Other way around too. I know many schools have 3 teams and they combine them into one going into states. Just wondering how it plays out convincing parents and left out competitive students.

I know at my middle school it is pretty openly acknowledged that due to the nature of some building events, being a good builder might not be enough to compete. If I recall correctly, this is something often mentioned at the beginning of the season open house meeting, that if a student is just good at a couple building events they may not be chosen to compete while someone in one or two building events who is also successful in a study/lab event or two might make it. (Although this issue may be a bit different from yours due to the fact that my middle school program does not have any defined teams before we assemble our team for regionals.)

Just make sure they understand that the team selection process is never an easy one, and that at the end of the day the situation must be taken from the standpoint of what is best for the team due to the nature of the general team constraints of Science Olympiad.

[Skink]

It depends on how the teams are stacked and what the size of the program is (where the difference between 35 and 60+ participants makes a big difference here). Is there an "A" team for Varsity? Heck, the first question we ask is if your region and state have V/JV designations. It is not uncommon to have better-built teams. It's a legitimate school of coaching to try to build equally-strong teams, but not as many programs are equipped to risk their State bid in that manner. Or, is there a perceived-better "A" team and any number of trailing teams? If there is, those are best determined by data, both in-house practice data and competition data. Some coaches even take it further than that...

Next, your coach(es) should have divulged at the outset what the method was to slotting the State team so that there are no surprises and to motivate students accordingly. If they didn't, you could always ask them! It's not a secret unless it has to be, if that makes sense. Common methods include taking the "A" or Varsity team with minimal edits (only if new data or conflicts surfaced) as well as taking the entire team that earned the State bid just on the principle of them winning.

Based on your suggestion, it sounds as though Regionals had three teams that were weighed more equally than not and that they are in the ugly splicing process. What's the problem? Teams do not fit neatly together. The more fluid the teams are made, the uglier that splicing them together becomes. That's the nature of the conflict blocks beast. The best participants, then, are often those who can cover more open events than those who cannot. Or, the best participants are made to fit new events if they're otherwise irreplaceable but not carrying the right events. It depends on what the coach or coaches and team values or what the more immediate needs are. Obviously, this is case by case, year by year.

To address specific concerns:

It seems unfair to students and coaches who have worked hard on devices, only to know that their device will be taken away by another team member because other participant is also good at something else.

I don't really understand what you're trying to say here. What I gather is that your son or daughter built a device by him or herself, used it well at Regionals, and did not make the State team. The coach has requested its use by the State-qualifying group in whatever event is in question. Was some agreement made at the outset that the best device would be taken once a State bid was earned? I feel like I'm missing crucial bits of the story here. See, if your son/daughter built the device by him or herself, take it home and put it into a closet. If it was a team effort (like Trajectory probably is), then I don't see why not let the team use it if it's, indeed, the best one they have available.

Just wondering how it plays out convincing parents and left out competitive students.

I mean, there are only fifteen slots. It stands to reason that the perceived most competitive (however we define that) participants advance for the good of the team. 'Competitive' may mean best individually in a single event or, more probably, good at worst in two to four of them. Thus, on limited information, I have two takeaways for you, having had this conversation many times over:
1. There is nothing wrong or inherently demoralizing about not making the State team just as there's nothing inherently wrong or demoralizing about not making Varsity prior to that if that's how teams are stacked. This is a meaningful life lesson for participants, and sooner is better to learn it. Team culture varies wildly by school, but I would hope that your team values all of its participants at their own competitive level.

2. Being strong in one event is not enough for a competitive team, and two may, even, be pushing it. If extreme work was put into one build event and, maybe, not everything else, then that may as well be its own reward in lieu of team placement. SO is about learning and fun just as much as winning, and sinking time into one build event primarily meets those first two criteria well. I trust that the third was met at Regionals.

On the flip side, let's not pretend that objective team slotting criteria exist. Intangibles often creep in. Coaching is relational, so it's all too easy to let intangibles tip the scales when a larger program has many equally-viable State team candidates. Additionally, it gets really ugly when school, district, or community politics get involved. And, in these cases, the perceived 'good guys' don't and won't always win. That, too, has a life lesson in there somewhere.

At any rate, it seems that a conversation with the coach or coaches would be productive.

[Lampooning]

Can a build be used legitimately in competition if none of the people who worked on it are on the competing team. That does not seem consistent with the spirit of SO but I do think that happens in schools that re-configure their teams from one competition to the next. If that is ok then In essence one team can serve as the building and support team for the actual team.

[Unome]

Can a build be used legitimately in competition if none of the people who worked on it are on the competing team. That does not seem consistent with the spirit of SO but I do think that happens in schools that re-configure their teams from one competition to the next. If that is ok then In essence one team can serve as the building and support team for the actual team.

I believe there is a general rule saying that devices have to be built by one of the 15 competing members (I don't remember exactly what it said, but it should be either on soinc.org or in the rules manual).

[chalker]

Can a build be used legitimately in competition if none of the people who worked on it are on the competing team. That does not seem consistent with the spirit of SO but I do think that happens in schools that re-configure their teams from one competition to the next. If that is ok then In essence one team can serve as the building and support team for the actual team.

I believe there is a general rule saying that devices have to be built by one of the 15 competing members (I don't remember exactly what it said, but it should be either on soinc.org or in the rules manual).

See general rule #4 https://www.soinc.org/ethics_rules
and the official SO building policy: https://www.soinc.org/building_tools_policy

[MustangSciOly11]

I am curious to know how schools merge their multiple teams into one when they go for state? It seems unfair to students and coaches who have worked hard on devices, only to know that their device will be taken away by another team member because other participant is also good at something else. Other way around too. I know many schools have 3 teams and they combine them into one going into states. Just wondering how it plays out convincing parents and left out competitive students.

I'm one of the coaches of the Muscatel Middle School Science Olympiad Team. After checking with all of our parents and team members, we've determined that the user "muscatel_parent" is NOT affiliated in any way with our team.

To the user "muscatel_parent," please DO NOT USE our school name as part of your username. Thank you.

[chalker]

I'm one of the coaches of the Muscatel Middle School Science Olympiad Team. After checking with all of our parents and team members, we've determined that the user "muscatel_parent" is NOT affiliated in any way with our team.

To the user "muscatel_parent," please DO NOT USE our school name as part of your username. Thank you.

With all due respect, for all you know it is one of the parents who wants to remain anonymous in fear of retaliation. And in my opinion it's inappropriate for you to consider yourself the 'trademark police' regarding what can or cannot be used for an username. How would you feel if Jeff Anderson (jander14indoor) who happens to work for Ford were to request you not use the trademarked 'Mustang' term in your username because he checked around and determined you aren't affiliated with Ford at all?

Since you are active here though and have chimed in on this thread, I'd be interested in hearing from you as to whether the practice described above is indeed happening at your school. Are students building devices early in the season, only to have them be used in competition later by other students?

[MustangSciOly11]

I'm one of the coaches of the Muscatel Middle School Science Olympiad Team. After checking with all of our parents and team members, we've determined that the user "muscatel_parent" is NOT affiliated in any way with our team.

To the user "muscatel_parent," please DO NOT USE our school name as part of your username. Thank you.

With all due respect, for all you know it is one of the parents who wants to remain anonymous in fear of retaliation. And in my opinion it's inappropriate for you to consider yourself the 'trademark police' regarding what can or cannot be used for an username. How would you feel if Jeff Anderson (jander14indoor) who happens to work for Ford were to request you not use the trademarked 'Mustang' term in your username because he checked around and determined you aren't affiliated with Ford at all?

Since you are active here though and have chimed in on this thread, I'd be interested in hearing from you as to whether the practice described above is indeed happening at your school. Are students building devices early in the season, only to have them be used in competition later by other students?

I think it's appropriate for our team to make the request since our team's integrity and sportsmanship are put into question, and since we have determined that the user is not affiliated with our team. In addition, the practice described above is not happening nor has ever happened at our school. We are very much aware and follow the Science Olympiad ethics and building policies. Our team prides itself with our sportmanship and integrity.

As far as the trademarked term "Mustang," the username "mustangscioly11" was chosen because our school mascot happens to be the mustang. If Mr. Jeff Anderson and/or the Ford Motor Company feels that they are being misrepresented through my posts on this forum, I'll be more than happy to consider changing my username. Thank you.

[Lampooning]

How about how the horses feel? Only ribbing. But this is an interesting issue. Not just about the teams mentioned here but in general. Seems like each year there are more schools that do re-configure their teams from one competition to another. And sometimes the team going to Nationals is vastly different from that one that went to states. In many instances I'm sure that the builds are very different at Nationals than States but I would guess in some instances the build from States just gets an update rather than is completely redone. This is especially true in events where the build is expensive and complex. Obviously the planes can be rebuilt although even in that case the design could have been developed by someone who was on the A team at Regionals but is not on the A team after that. At some of the regionals and Invitationals I sometimes see 30 or more members posing with the trophy. How can a team of 15 compete with a team of 30?