Designs

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Re: Designs

Post by Balsa Man »

Cheesy Pie wrote:My tryout tower - Regional scoring - is 50 cm tall, basswood and a little balsa, and I don't know the mass. Although I think it will be moderate. Do you have any hypotheses on the score? Thank you! I need it to do well - I spent a lot on it.
No hypothesis involved; it will score exactly what the rules say it will score....
(load carried in kg divided by tower weight in grams) times (height in cm minus 5) for regionals, (height minus 15 for State)
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Re: Designs

Post by Balsa Man »

SLM, your analysis, with good illustrations, as always is really helpful.
A question- on another aspect of stability:
My....intuitive sense is that when (looking at your second figure), the, I'll call it the load force vector - the line along which the load is being applied/is pulling, swings outside the line of a leg, i.e., in the figure, the block moves a bit more right, there is a a major transition in stability. With the load hanging vertically and centered, force on the legs is equal. As the load swings/shifts to one side, the load on the side/leg its swing toward increases; at the point the load vector is aligned with the leg, essentially all the load is on that leg. When the line moves a bit farther out, a whole new factor comes into play- a tipping moment; pulling the tower over, bending/bowing the chimney. With no taper, any off-centeredness takes you into this instability; a little bit of taper gives you a little bit of latitude (for bucket swing, for things not being "true." More taper gives you more latitude. Thoughts on this?
Thanks
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Re: Designs

Post by SLM »

Balsa Man wrote:... a little bit of taper gives you a little bit of latitude (for bucket swing, for things not being "true." More taper gives you more latitude. Thoughts on this?
Thanks
My take on this issue:

When we are considering the over-turning of a tower due to the swinging of the sand bucket, there are only three factors (quantities) that we need to worry about, the shape of the chimney is not one of them. The relevant quantities are: the height of the tower, the distance between the support points, and the angle that the sand bucket makes with the horizontal axis.

The following diagram shows a generic tower. You can assume any shape for it as long as:
(1) It has only two support points (we are using a two-dimensional model here) and
(2) The load chain is attached to the top of the tower and passes through the support points at the base.
Image

Let H denote the height of the tower and W be the distance between the support points. Also, let’s replace the bucket and the chain with a downward force applied at the top of the tower, as shown below.
Image

In the above diagram, the support points are labeled A and B, and the point of application of the load (at the top of the tower) is labeled C.

According to Newton’s third law, for every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction. Therefore, since the tower is exerting a force of P on the table, the table reacts by applying an opposite force of P to the tower. This means the table exerts a force of P/2 on the tower at each support point, as shown below.
Image

Since the algebraic sum of the forces applied to the tower (a downward P and two upward P/2s) is zero, we say the tower is in equilibrium, no tipping over yet.

As the bucket starts to move, the direction of P changes, as shown below.
Image

This causes a change in the balance of the two reaction forces at A and B. If the bucket moves to the right (the scenario shown above), then the reaction at B increases while the reaction at A decreases. This eventually leads to the reaction force at A to vanish, as depicted below.
Image

This happens exactly when the line of action of the applied force (P) passes through point B. Past this point, any additional increase in the angle of swing would cause the tower to tip over. Therefore, the critical angle of swing, the angle that makes the chain pass through point B, reduces the reaction at A to zero, and initiate the tipping over of the tower can be easily calculated using simple geometry. The angle equals to the inverse tangent of (W/ 2H). Here is a numerical example.

Example : A tower is 70 cm tall and 10 cm wide (the distance between the base of the legs). If the sand bucket is carrying an unknown amount of sand, how much (in terms of degrees) it can swing in one direction before the tower tips over?

H= 70, W = 10

Tangent of Critical Angle = (W/2H) = ( 10 / 140 ) = (1/14)

Therefore, Critical Angle = 4.09 degrees.

Note that this calculation does not involve any information about the shape of the chimney other than its height.

Having said all of this, however, there are two practical factors that make this kind of instability unlikely for tall towers.

1) The legs generally are not strong enough to carry the extra load being shifted to them as the bucket swings in one direction. A leg failure will take place before the tower tips over.
2) The narrow width of the chimney limits the amount of movement of the chain. It is unlikely that the angle of swing would reach its critical value.
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Re: Designs

Post by LKN »

SLM, great response. I think this really put a diagram to what I was trying to explain that I observed with my rectangular bases. The picture finally got uploaded, here is the side view that I am talking about in this post: http://gallery.scioly.org/details.php?image_id=3635
So, with that being said:

Since you were using a 2D diagram, it would be easiest to assume a square base for the tower. Back to ideas I had earlier on this topic. The rectangular bases I have been using at a width between the legs of 5 cm but a chimney width of 2.8 (bottom) and 2.5 (top) should still not tip over because I have widened them at the base, providing enough distance between the legs, points A and B from the 5cm side view, to keep the tower from tipping over. Also, if this was to occur, strengthening legs in the direction of the tipping movement would be more "safe" (not necessarily efficient, but not everything is perfect), supporting the weight of the tower as much as possible (depending on at what load they would fail). I haven't done all of the math yet, but if I can make a lean-in rectangular base that, in theory, would have legs A and B separated enough to have critical angle that would occur right at 15kg? This would be risky because then all of the load added to one of the legs would have to be supported, meaning the leg would be over-engineered, but only IF there was no bucket sway at any angle. Am I Right? I know earlier you and BalsaMan agreed that this very thin-gap rectangular design would definitely invite tower tipping, but the physics background you gave above seems to further "support" my ideas. What do you think? Again, realize that this is cutting it close. I haven't been able to put my ideas into physics situations like you have, but from what I have observed, is this the same principle for the lean-in rectangle design?

Also, anyone have input for the joint of tensional member I used here? http://gallery.scioly.org/details.php?image_id=3637
Would this butt joint (using the leg and tension member) and lap joint (using the gusset plate) make the joint any more "secure"? I went into more detail earlier on this topic, but didn't quite see if anyone had any ideas. I 99% sure that technically, if you glued the member perfectly, no extra joints would strengthen the tower and would be unnecessary. But, for what I am trying to do, is it "worth the weight" to have the added lap joint, without having to test for just that joint over multiple trials? Should I even just use a lap joint between the tension member and the base leg?
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Re: Designs

Post by SLM »

LKN wrote: I know earlier you and BalsaMan agreed that this very thin-gap rectangular design would definitely invite tower tipping, but the physics background you gave above seems to further "support" my ideas. What do you think?

Also, Would this butt joint (using the leg and tension member) and lap joint (using the gusset plate) make the joint any more "secure"?
The issue with a tall and narrow chimney is not over-turning of the entire tower. It is the development of excess force in the main compression members due to significant lateral (horizontal) movement of the tower.

Generally, a tall and narrow tower is going to displace horizontally at the top for several reasons including: lateral movement of the sand bucket, eccentric placement of the load block, unsymmetrical stiffness of the tower, unequal horizontal displacement of the legs, or any combination of these factors. Let’s refer to this displacement as D, as shown below.
Image
The red arrow represents the force of the sand being applied to the top of the tower. Although a tapered design may reduce the amount of displacement, D may still be significant enough to cause a problem. To see how, let’s separate the chimney from the base and show the forces that are acting on it.
Image
Here, S is width of the chimney at its base, Fa is the compression force in the left leg (A), Fb is the compression force in the right leg (B) and D is the distance that the chain has shifted from its original position in the unloaded tower. Again, here we are using a 2D model of the tower.

When D = 0 (no sidesway), Fa = Fb = P/2 (I am simplifying the problem a bit here). This is the case that we generally design the tower for (the same force in each member). But, as D increases, both Fa and Fb change. Fa decreases and Fb increases in compression; member A becomes less compressed and B becomes more compressed. The amount of this change is directly proportional to the ratio of D/S. More specifically,


Fa = P/2 – P(D/S) and
Fb = P/2 + P(D/S).

Let’s say you are trying to reduce the tower’s weight as much as you can, and have decided to overdesign your tower by not more than 10%. This means that member B can carry only 10% more than its theoretical capacity (which is P/2 in our example). Therefore, D/S should not exceed 0.05 (10% of P/2 = 5% of P). If it does, the member fails.

Therefore, for a narrow chimney base, say, 3 cm (S= 3), the ratio D/S should not exceed 0.05. This means D has to be less than (3 x 0.05 = 0.15 cm or 1.5 mm). Consequently, a horizontal displacement of more than 1.5 mm at the top of the tower would cause member B to fail. A chimney base of 5 cm, gives room for a displacement of 2.5 mm before member failure occurs, theoretically speaking of course.

This may not be a serious issue for every tower design, but it is something to be mindful of as one goes about deciding on dimensions and member sizes. That is why I am more inclined to start with a wider base for the chimney and only after some testing, and gaining insight into the behavior of the tower, make it slimmer.

Per butt-lap joint connection, from your picture I can see the butt joint between the bracing and the base of the leg, but don’t see an effective lap joint. It appears as if the gusset is glued to the leg but not to the bracing in any significant way. That is, the length of the gusset over the bracing seems to be very small. Although I think you probably do not need the gusset, but if you really think you need to further strengthen the connection, then you may want to shift the gusset plate to cover more of the horizontal bracing. I would say, at least, half of the length of the gusset should be on the bracing and the rest on the leg.
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Re: Designs

Post by soinc9876 »

Does anybody know of a good computer program you can use to design towers? I have heard of them but I can't seem to find one. (google is no help) The lower the price the better. Thanks :D
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Re: Designs

Post by Balsa Man »

soinc9876 wrote:Does anybody know of a good computer program you can use to design towers? I have heard of them but I can't seem to find one. (google is no help) The lower the price the better. Thanks :D
The short answer is no – in terms of anything you could begin to afford, or that would tell you anything more than some fairly simple calculations that have been discussed.

An Excel spreadsheet is an excellent and useful tool for these. Have you read through the tower discussions- this year and last? Pretty much every aspect/possibility of “design” has been discussed, and a lot of specific information you may be looking for has been provided.

If by “design”, you mean just doing drawings, there are a number of pretty simple graphics/drawing programs- the limitation on usefulness will be a printer/plotter to get you full scale output. A couple hours hand doing drawings will get what you need.

If by “design” you mean tell you what shape (as in the geometry of the legs) is “best”, then you’re missing a very basic understanding. The rules pretty much constrain the basic geometry- at the bottom of the base, you have to span the test base opening; at the top of the base/bottom of the chimney (30cm up from the bottom in a B-tower), the legs have to fit inside an 8cm circle, and at the top of the tower, the legs have to fit under a 5cm square load block. Yes, in the base, you have the option of square or rectangular, or triangular – there’s been quite a bit of discussion of the advantages and disadvantages. In the chimney, you’re more constrained – 3-leg triangle, or 4-leg square-the open aspect is how much slant, but the top opening has to be big enough to fit a 3cm wide eyebolt head. Within these constraints, “best” is not really a matter of geometry, it is what wood you use for the legs, how you configure your bracing, and what wood you use for it. In a B-tower, the dimensional constraints allow a curved-leg, Eifel tower-like configuration.

Is there a program that will tell you what wood will “work” in either a straight leg or curved leg configuration?- the practical answer is no, a) there are dynamic structural analysis programs (costing thousands of dollars) that with sufficient input, could give you some insights, b) you don’t have, and don’t have a reasonable way to get the input data needed to get meaningful “design” output from such programs– needed input would start with measurement of the modulus of elasticity and area moment data for a variety of cross-sections and density. We're talking a major science project....

If by design, you mean figuring out what the forces on the legs (in a straight-leg configuration) under full load are, that’s a simple calculation, that’s already been discussed, and the numbers provided. Assuming 4 legs (if you’re thinking 3 legs, review the discussions of why this is probably not a good idea) – if the legs are vertical, each carries ¼ of the load – at a 15kg load, 3.75kg per leg. As you slant the legs out from vertical, the axial compression force increases – at a 10 degree angle from vertical, its up to 3.80kg; at a 20 degree angle its up to 3.99kg. This increase is a function of one over the cosine of the angle from vertical. In a 4-leg B-tower base, if the legs just clear the base opening, and just fit in an 8cm circle, they’ll be at an angle of 12.5 degrees, and at a 15kg load, they’ll see 3.84kg. In the chimney, with the slant angle less than 3 degrees, the force increase is less than 1/100th of a kg – 3.75kg.
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Re: Designs

Post by mrsteven »

I'm having an unusual issue I haven't seen in past years. My tower is actually breaking because the joints are giving out. So upon collapse, no wood is broken only the glue is separated. I am using medium viscosity CA glue. I know there are several alternatives but generally people use CA. Am I doing something methodically wrong or using the wrong glue?
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Re: Designs

Post by iYOA »

are you by any chance using a desiccant for your tower?
what technique are you using to apply glue?
are you sure your tower is perfectly straight?
i think a little bit more info might be needed
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Re: Designs

Post by mrsteven »

iYOA wrote:are you by any chance using a desiccant for your tower?
what technique are you using to apply glue?
are you sure your tower is perfectly straight?
i think a little bit more info might be needed
Accelerator, sometimes. I use it when I don't want to sit and hold the joint so for maybe 1/2 i did, 1/2 i didnt

Im applying the glue from the bottle onto the crosses then to the main structure pieces (4 main). Then holding tight onto the joint for 5 seconds and either accelerating or letting sit.

I'm absolutely positive its straight
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