Pennsylvania 2019

nendawen
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Re: Pennsylvania 2019

Post by nendawen »

Paypog wrote:Event reviews :O


Experimental Design (1): This was slightly out of the norm for me because the topic included an experiment that everyone had to do. Therefore we didn't have to waste much time, and were able to get right to it. Other than that slight difference, nothing really caught my eye during this event. (7/10)

The 2019 rules now require the ES provide a purpose for the experiment which forces everyone into the same general experiment. That helps standardize the grading and takes the bias out of the grading team from determining if the experiment is off topic.

What you saw should be the norm. If you haven’t seen that, then the event is run under old rules.
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Re: Pennsylvania 2019

Post by kate! »

nendawen wrote:
Paypog wrote:Event reviews :O


Experimental Design (1): This was slightly out of the norm for me because the topic included an experiment that everyone had to do. Therefore we didn't have to waste much time, and were able to get right to it. Other than that slight difference, nothing really caught my eye during this event. (7/10)

The 2019 rules now require the ES provide a purpose for the experiment which forces everyone into the same general experiment. That helps standardize the grading and takes the bias out of the grading team from determining if the experiment is off topic.

What you saw should be the norm. If you haven’t seen that, then the event is run under old rules.
The rules have never specified whether the ES needs to provide A) no topic, B) a general topic, or C) a specific topic. I have seen all three in my competition time, and looking at the rules now, the only thing that has been changed pertaining to what you said is that a score multiplier will be added if the experiment is off-topic. Otherwise, nothing major has changed except the creation of a "part 1" and "part 2" and the removal of Statement of Purpose, both of which have nothing to do with the topic. What Paypog is saying is that instead of allowing competitors to come up with their own purpose, hypothesis, or experiment, the topic was a set experiment (check out the Rustin invitational prompt if you want to see an example of what he means, the topic literally was a statement of problem and therefore competitors could not come up with their own experiment at all). I'm assuming what you're trying to say is that the rules require the ES to give a topic (whether it's specific like Rustin or general like "elasticity"), but it doesn't say that in the rules. In the Event Logistics Manual on SOINC, it does mention that the ES should point the competitors in some sort of direction, and that just telling them to do an experiment is not acceptable (shoutout to you, NY B 2018 ES!). However, I don't believe this was implemented just this year, and it seems to just be common sense, as well as not being an official rule by any means.
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nendawen
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Re: Pennsylvania 2019

Post by nendawen »

Trying to delete this. Accidentally posted twice
Last edited by nendawen on Wed May 01, 2019 4:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Pennsylvania 2019

Post by nendawen »

Previous to this year teams “off topic” were tiered. This meant that a topic needed to be provided by the supervisor. Many supervisors did not do this, but that was a violation of the spirit of the event.

The topic allowed for multiple purposes which meant multiple experiments.

The SOSI material from 2018 and the PA Coaches Clinic material from the Fall of 2018 clearly define the changes in the event for 2019 which include a clearly defined purpose which leads to a clearly defined experiment. This helps remove supervisor bias from section scoring and a equal comparison of tie breakers.

The days of trying to trick teams by having them try to guess the topic are over.

As for the rustin experiment, it was pretty clear. It was a pendulum. Since you must do an experiment that actually works there was only 1 solution. Change length. (You can’t change gravity)

If you did anything else you would find that there was no effect to changing angle, mass, ect and you would struggle to get all of the points in some of the sections.
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Re: Pennsylvania 2019

Post by Paypog »

nendawen wrote:
Paypog wrote:Event reviews :O


Experimental Design (1): This was slightly out of the norm for me because the topic included an experiment that everyone had to do. Therefore we didn't have to waste much time, and were able to get right to it. Other than that slight difference, nothing really caught my eye during this event. (7/10)

The 2019 rules now require the ES provide a purpose for the experiment which forces everyone into the same general experiment. That helps standardize the grading and takes the bias out of the grading team from determining if the experiment is off topic.

What you saw should be the norm. If you haven’t seen that, then the event is run under old rules.
I understand that the ES giving a more specific topic is helpful to teams, and will allow for standardization. This format was in no means detrimental to our performance but was just different than anything I've experienced. However, nowhere that I see does it say that it is necessarily wrong to give a more general topic, and I went to a tournament this year in which the ES for expd was the division b national supervisor. Once again, this format was in no way bad, but it certainly is not the norm.
Last edited by Paypog on Wed May 01, 2019 4:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
2018 Events: Anatomy (Big oof), Ecology (Mild oof), Experimental Design( :D :D ), Herpetology (Mild oof)
2019 Events: Anatomy (oof), Experimental Design (oof), Herpetology (oof), Circuit Lab (oof)
2020 Events: Anatomy, Ornithology, Ping-Pong Parachute
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Re: Pennsylvania 2019

Post by kate! »

nendawen wrote:Previous to this year teams “off topic” were tiered. This meant that a topic needed to be provided by the supervisor. Many supervisors did not do this, but that was a violation of the spirit of the event.

The topic allowed for multiple purposes which meant multiple experiments.

The SOSI material from 2018 and the PA Coaches Clinic material from the Fall of 2018 clearly define the changes in the event for 2019 which include a clearly defined purpose which leads to a clearly defined experiment. This helps remove supervisor bias from section scoring and a equal comparison of tie breakers.

The days of trying to trick teams by having them try to guess the topic are over.

As for the rustin experiment, it was pretty clear. It was a pendulum. Since you must do an experiment that actually works there was only 1 solution. Change length. (You can’t change gravity)

If you did anything else you would find that there was no effect to changing angle, mass, ect and you would struggle to get all of the points in some of the sections.
First of all, teams this year are tiered as well for not being on topic, it's just called a score multiplier instead of a tier. Second of all, I'm talking about the Rustin experiment from 2019- it was not a pendulum. Third of all, I don't think we're on the same page here. Earlier, you were talking about the rules, not SOSI. Maybe NSO will put this in the official rules eventually, but right now it just says to provide a topic, not a set statement of purpose. The majority of practice experiments I have seen and competitions I have been to have a general topic that gently guides participants rather than creating the experiment for him. However, I honestly don't think that making a clearly defined purpose/experiment would be beneficial to the event. I understand the benefits of setting clear guidelines on the experiment, but not allowing teams to uniquely interpret the prompt is quite frankly undermining the purpose of the event. Why even have the event if all you're allowed to do is follow exactly what the proctor tells you to do? Yes, of course different teams will have slightly different results and observations, but doing this wouldn't allow them to use any resourcefulness, quick thinking, or creativity if all they could do was one experiment. The whole point of Experimental Design is to encourage teamwork, analysis, and problem solving, but if you literally hand the problem to competitors already solved, that's completely defeating of, dare I say, the purpose of scientific analysis itself. Scientists are supposed to create an experiment based on their own observations and put their own interpretation into what the materials they have can do. Simply giving competitors 3 pieces of paper and saying "What effect does the type of paper have on the amount of time the paper airplane stays in the air?" doesn't let them come to their own conclusion after analyzing the materials as effectively as just saying "Paper Airplanes", or even at all. Implementing these so-called rule changes would completely limit the observational freedom of participants. No one is "tricking teams" and no one is having to "guess the topic", event supervisors are simply providing competitors with materials, guiding them slightly, and overall letting them do the event on their own. Giving away the statement of problem would essentially mean that the event supervisors are doing the event for the competitors, and that is not what Experimental Design or any event is about at all.
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9th grade: I knew stuff about amphibians, reptiles, freshwater, and experiments!
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11th grade: I knew stuff about birds and fossils!
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Re: Pennsylvania 2019

Post by nendawen »

I think you need to go back and look at Rustin 2019 again.

As for creativity there is still room for tons of it. The procedures will be different. The SOCs will be different and many other parts. Other parts such as the Variables will be the same.

As for tricking I have seen EDs were supervisors drop bags of supplies on the table and say go. This has been at both invitationals and regionals.

Grades at the PA state tournament in ED went from the mid 40s to 108. Obviously what was done wasn’t so easy.

I can’t speak for every team at the PA tournament, but from what I understand there were teams off topic and who had used dime of the alternative materials.

Also multipliers are not tie tiering. A team with a multiplier can come in, in front of a team that gets 1 point. That’s doesn’t happen with tiers.
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Re: Pennsylvania 2019

Post by kate! »

nendawen wrote:I think you need to go back and look at Rustin 2019 again.

As for creativity there is still room for tons of it. The procedures will be different. The SOCs will be different and many other parts. Other parts such as the Variables will be the same.

As for tricking I have seen EDs were supervisors drop bags of supplies on the table and say go. This has been at both invitationals and regionals.

Grades at the PA state tournament in ED went from the mid 40s to 108. Obviously what was done wasn’t so easy.

I can’t speak for every team at the PA tournament, but from what I understand there were teams off topic and who had used dime of the alternative materials.

Also multipliers are not tie tiering. A team with a multiplier can come in, in front of a team that gets 1 point. That’s doesn’t happen with tiers.
1. I did look at Rustin 2019 again. It was not a pendulum.
2. I didn't mean that the parts of the report wouldn't be different. I meant that the entire experiment would be the same as everyone else's, and to me, and I'm sure others, that feels restrictive and like the ES is trying to dictate exactly what the competitors do.
3. That's also not what I meant. That has happened to me before at states and I suppose you could call it tricking, but I thought you were talking about just giving a general topic rather than a specific prompt.
4. Grades like that will result from any experiment no matter the topic. Obviously unprepared teams will get low scores and prepared teams will get high scores, that has nothing to do with the topic.
5. I know that multipliers and tiering are different, I was just saying how you could get tiered in 2018 but now in 2019 that tiering system has been replaced with score multipliers. (Thanks for pointing out the difference though.)
8th grade: I knew stuff about rocks, minerals, experiments, and ecosystems!
9th grade: I knew stuff about amphibians, reptiles, freshwater, and experiments!
10th grade: I knew stuff about oceanography, saltwater, birds, and fossils!
11th grade: I knew stuff about birds and fossils!
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Re: Pennsylvania 2019

Post by nendawen »

I have to apologize. I just got off the phone with a person involved with Rustin. I had crisscrossed my invitationals. Rustin was the ball drop. This supervisor did a pendulum at another competition this year.
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Re: Pennsylvania 2019

Post by Anomaly »

nendawen wrote:I have to apologize. I just got off the phone with a person involved with Rustin. I had crisscrossed my invitationals. Rustin was the ball drop. This supervisor did a pendulum at another competition this year.
I think the pendulum length was the regional topic for PA this year...
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