Scioly.org

I agree that meeting in person has huge benefits. Communication is key, and with such technological complications, its worth sacrificing some wifi speed to avoid these difficulties. Furthermore, meeting up in person provides some aspect of the "true" in person competition vibes. Unfortunately, I don't think our school is going to be able to meet up in person, due to worries over COVID-19 and logistical complications : (

shadow19 wrote: ↑March 23rd, 2021, 8:00 pm I agree that meeting in person has huge benefits. [..] Unfortunately, I don't think our school is going to be able to meet up in person, due to worries over COVID-19 and logistical complications : (

Which is why I don't think it's fair. Teams should compete on a level playing field, which I think this year means all remote.

Name argues that "It will happen anyway" meaning that teams will cheat. I'll point out that it's relatively easy for team coaches to verify that their students are in their individual homes at the start of the day. Sure - if you've got siblings on a team, you might just have to hope that they're honest, but coaches are able to go quite a long way towards ensuring fair play.

Of course, if the coaches are in on the cheating, then there's less you can do about it, but if your coach wants to cheat, maybe they could just take your test for you...

knightmoves wrote: ↑March 24th, 2021, 6:04 am Name argues that "It will happen anyway" meaning that teams will cheat. I'll point out that it's relatively easy for team coaches to verify that their students are in their individual homes at the start of the day. Sure - if you've got siblings on a team, you might just have to hope that they're honest, but coaches are able to go quite a long way towards ensuring fair play.

Fairness is another issue, but where has NY made meeting up considered cheating?

Name wrote: ↑March 24th, 2021, 6:40 am Fairness is another issue, but where has NY made meeting up considered cheating?

In a normal year, everyone's in the same classroom together, and it's all fine. This isn't a normal year.

Fairness requires teams to compete on a level playing field. This year, I don't see a reasonable way of achieving that level playing field without insisting that all event partners should be physically apart from each other. Therefore NYSO should insist on this, and therefore not following this rule would be cheating.

You're right - if NYSO doesn't expect partners not to be in the same room, then meeting up wouldn't be cheating. It would be unfair on those teams that can't do that (for whatever reason), but legal.

But the whole point of the rules is to create a fair competition. That's what they're for. This year has a whole pile of special-case rules to cope with the fact that everything is different because of Covid. Maintaining a level playing field, to the greatest extent possible, should be part of that.

Name wrote: ↑March 24th, 2021, 6:40 am Fairness is another issue, but where has NY made meeting up considered cheating?

I'm also pretty sure since the STAR system is a version of the miniSO, and miniSO forbids teams from meeting up in person.

knightmoves wrote: ↑March 24th, 2021, 7:01 am

Name wrote: ↑March 24th, 2021, 6:40 am Fairness is another issue, but where has NY made meeting up considered cheating?

In a normal year, everyone's in the same classroom together, and it's all fine. This isn't a normal year.

Fairness requires teams to compete on a level playing field. This year, I don't see a reasonable way of achieving that level playing field without insisting that all event partners should be physically apart from each other. Therefore NYSO should insist on this, and therefore not following this rule would be cheating.

You're right - if NYSO doesn't expect partners not to be in the same room, then meeting up wouldn't be cheating. It would be unfair on those teams that can't do that (for whatever reason), but legal.

But the whole point of the rules is to create a fair competition. That's what they're for. This year has a whole pile of special-case rules to cope with the fact that everything is different because of Covid. Maintaining a level playing field, to the greatest extent possible, should be part of that.

This raises a huge question about cheating in Science Olympiad in general; I think the three things to look at are the motive to cheat, the method of cheating, and the consequences.

Motive: At this point in the season, the motive is to qualify for states or nationals. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm under the expression that performing well is mainly about the "glory", as opposed to a reward. Especially considering that teams will not be traveling to nationals, the primary incentive is related to legitimate success, and I doubt anyone would feel satisfied with performing well while cheating. Of course, I'm sure there are external pressures that would cause someone to cheat in certain circumstances, but I really hope that due to a good team or partner relationship, this wouldn't occur.

Method: Probably the only way in which teams would cheat is looking things up, as there's no benefit in getting answers from another person when you can just use the internet. It's really as simple as it can be; a competitor looks up the answer and writes it on the answer sheet, NYSSO isn't actively employing any anti-cheating mechanisms. It would certainly be interesting if test writers included a few very obscure questions (and I mean very very very obscure) that would help to show if a team looked up answers.

Consequences: As previously mentioned, a person probably wouldn't feel too good about themselves after doing this. In terms of tangible consequences, a cheater would risk being removed from their team, and it's possible that NYSSO has the authority and discretion to punish someone for doing this (can someone fact-check this?)

Meeting up: Is this "cheating" in the sense that it is maliciously done to receive a better placement? Definitely not. However, I would agree, along with people who have recently responded, that it is preferable to meet up (safely of course) in person, mainly because it is enjoyable to. The main benefit should be enhanced communication ability. As a member of a team that has the ability to test in-person, I'm definitely biased, but I feel that, especially given the online format of the tests, the communication advantage is negligible and this should not be considered cheating.

Summary: Although a lot relies on the honor system, I doubt that cheating will be a significant issue, although it would be interesting if "cheat detection" problems were used. While meeting up would seem to create a slightly uneven playing field, it doesn't make sense to ban this because of the fact that online tests nearly eliminate this advantage, leaving the only benefit as being more enjoyment of the competition.

Edit: regarding what MorningCoffee said... I have no idea and that would make this a moot point (oops)

knightmoves wrote: ↑March 24th, 2021, 7:01 am

Name wrote: ↑March 24th, 2021, 6:40 am Fairness is another issue, but where has NY made meeting up considered cheating?

In a normal year, everyone's in the same classroom together, and it's all fine. This isn't a normal year.

Fairness requires teams to compete on a level playing field. This year, I don't see a reasonable way of achieving that level playing field without insisting that all event partners should be physically apart from each other. Therefore NYSO should insist on this, and therefore not following this rule would be cheating.

You're right - if NYSO doesn't expect partners not to be in the same room, then meeting up wouldn't be cheating. It would be unfair on those teams that can't do that (for whatever reason), but legal.

But the whole point of the rules is to create a fair competition. That's what they're for. This year has a whole pile of special-case rules to cope with the fact that everything is different because of Covid. Maintaining a level playing field, to the greatest extent possible, should be part of that.

The definition of level playing field is a controversial and very subjective one. Could it be considered unfair to force people to have printed binders when some people don't have printers and can't easily print them anywhere else? Is it unfair that some people find certain resources while others cannot? Is the very idea of a competition, unfair then, because some people have more time and more resources to prepare for the competition than others? However, I think most of us can agree that these things wouldn't be considered unfair. Things that we WOULD consider unfair would be using internet during a test, having parents or coaches help, etc... So what is the main difference between these? I think whether we perceive things as fair or unfair depends on a few variables, which can outweigh one another; the ability to regulate or proctor the method in question, how much they affect the competitor's performance, and does it reflect the ability of the competitor and/or the spirit of the competition? These variables are obviously subjective and people can have differing opinions on them. However I believe that meeting in person does not significantly affect the competitor's performance, and that any effect it does have is only supplemental to the competitor's ability, and is in accordance with the spirit of science olympiad. Therefore my opinion is that it should not be banned.

I'll ask my coach to clarify with NYS if meeting up is allowed, ultimately it is their decision and not our opinions that matter.

Meeting up though could even up the field of competition. I do not believe that it provides a competitive advantage: we are still socially distanced and transmitting answers to each other online. However meeting up allows for printing capabilities, which is essential for a fair playing field in Codebusters since a PDF does not allow for interactive solving. People with access to only Chromebooks would also be at a disadvantage, especially since NY has asked everyone to use Adobe which is not available on our school Chromebooks but is available on the school computers. You can say that talking to each other in person is a communicative advantage, but I do not feel as if it is any different from voice calling on discord with a good connection and makes it fairer for those who do not have a good connection. I think the most beneficial advantage for me was being able to pull up the test on a monitor and fill out the sheet on my laptop at the same time, but if I had two monitors at home it would be the same thing.

As for the consequences of cheating, I believe that NY would disqualify them from that event and any additional punishment would be up to the team. However, I have heard that NY has been reluctant to disqualify even when there is evidence towards searching, and I find it ridiculous that a person caught cheating results in the same placement as filling out your full name on the answer sheet.

Name wrote: ↑March 24th, 2021, 8:05 am I'll ask my coach to clarify with NYS if meeting up is allowed, ultimately it is their decision and not our opinions that matter.

Meeting up though could even up the field of competition. I do not believe that it provides a competitive advantage: we are still socially distanced and transmitting answers to each other online.

If you are, for example, in adjacent classrooms in your school, that's not what I was hearing being described as "meeting up". And I'd agree with Blesson that being able to use a classroom at school might increase equity for people who don't have a good workspace and/or good network at home. I was assuming that coaches were already helping people who weren't going in to school get their stuff printed.

I hadn't thought about printing out tests during the event - I'd assumed that was completely forbidden, for equity reasons (not everyone has access to a printer, paper tests are much easier to use than online ones). Although if NYSO wasn't bothered about people being able to compete on a school chromebook...

Name wrote: ↑March 24th, 2021, 8:05 am You can say that talking to each other in person is a communicative advantage, but I do not feel as if it is any different from voice calling on discord with a good connection and makes it fairer for those who do not have a good connection.

In-person is a much richer medium. You can point, you get facial expressions and body language, you can see where your partner is in the test without bothering them - I find it much easier than voice, even with a good connection. shadow19 above was I think agreeing with this.

Being in different classrooms at school should, to a reasonable degree, solve the "poor connection" issue without providing the competitive advantage that I think being at the same desk / in the same room provides.

knightmoves wrote: ↑March 24th, 2021, 12:51 pm
I hadn't thought about printing out tests during the event - I'd assumed that was completely forbidden, for equity reasons (not everyone has access to a printer, paper tests are much easier to use than online ones). Although if NYSO wasn't bothered about people being able to compete on a school chromebook...

Printing only really applies to Codebusters. Not allowing printing would mean you need to manually copy lines down, or else ciphers become semi impossible to solve realistically. From what I gathered from other teams, printing was the standard for Codebusters at Regionals. I agree though that this would be unfair for those who could not print and the legality of this issue should probably have been communicated better by NYSO.

knightmoves wrote: ↑March 24th, 2021, 12:51 pm
In-person is a much richer medium. You can point, you get facial expressions and body language, you can see where your partner is in the test without bothering them - I find it much easier than voice, even with a good connection. shadow19 above was I think agreeing with this.

Staying socially distanced with face masks and shields means you don't really see facial expressions or body language. I checked my partner's progress through tests primarily by having a shared google doc where we put the answers before transferring them to the answer sheet: that would not be any different then if we voice called. Being able to sit next to each other is a big competitive advantage if you're taking the same on paper test together (e.g. ability to solve code ciphers together would be a big deal), but we are still abiding by all the safety precautions while taking tests.