Math Ability of Competitors

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Re: Math Ability of Competitors

Post by primitivepolonium »

drcubbin wrote:I think most of the students who do the physics events are pretty aware of what to expect, but maybe (just a suggestion) an addition to event "Description", such as "Impound: Yes or No" or "Eye Protection: B or C" there could be a Math Level: A, B or C (but not limited to)
Math Level A: Number Sense, Algebra, Geometry and Spatial Reasoning, Measurement, Data Analysis and Probability
Math Level B: Algebra I & II, Geometry, Trigonometry, Pre-Calculus
Math Level C: Trigonometry & Analytical Geometry, Calculus I & II, Differential Equations
* Don't hold me to what I am including here. These are just off the top of my head.
I like the idea of having descriptive* math levels, not necessarily to filter for difficulty, but to give test writers a better sense of what kinds of questions the rules were meant to inspire. I imagine some of the rules out there could be interpreted in different ways, since topics are sometimes just listed (eg: Chem Lab had "magnetism" last year, and I definitely interpreted that differently from what other people did...).

That said, the quality of the questions really depends on who's writing them (and by extension, how clear the rules are). Issues with math difficulty usually stem from topic ambiguity or people trying to make hard/easier questions but not knowing how. I've seen difficult questions that didn't require more than algebra I, and I've seen underwhelming/off topic questions written with calculus. But test-writing is something that is a lot more difficult to train, and there are many different schools of thought as to what a good exam is. Different can of worms.

One reservation I have about putting math difficulty levels on rules is that I'm worried SOINC will undershoot when tying difficulties to classes. Case in point: Chem Lab is tied to "first year [chemistry] high school courses". Besides the fact that first year chem classes have ridiculous fluctuations in difficulty (ranging from "can get top 150 in ChemOly on the first try" to "thinks NaCl has sodium, carbon and iodine in it"), it makes it so that an exam written to those specifications might not be as good in separating teams or being intellectually stimulating.** It'd be bad if physics events were capped at Algebra I and below, which I could see SOINC doing.

*Descriptive being more specific, not refering to any field of science/math that may have the word "descriptive" in it.
**This isn't to make fun of kids starting out in chemistry; it's just at the states and nationals level, most teams are sending second or third or even fourth year chemistry students to compete. I also suspect this is why the Chem Lab Nats exam often gets complaints of being too conceptually easy, since the rules themselves are on the easier side.
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Re: Math Ability of Competitors

Post by drcubbin »

I would put Algebra 1 in Level A just because I don't think that it really fits with Algebra 2, Trig, and Pre-Calc. Algebra 1 is mostly linear stuff in my experience. But again, that's my experience.
Math Level A: Number Sense, Algebra I, Geometry and Spatial Reasoning, Measurement, Data Analysis and Probability
Math Level B: Algebra II, Geometry, Trigonometry, Pre-Calculus
Math Level C: Trigonometry & Analytical Geometry, Calculus I & II, Differential Equations

Better! Any other suggestions?
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Re: Math Ability of Competitors

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drcubbin wrote:
I would put Algebra 1 in Level A just because I don't think that it really fits with Algebra 2, Trig, and Pre-Calc. Algebra 1 is mostly linear stuff in my experience. But again, that's my experience.
Math Level A: Number Sense, Algebra I, Geometry and Spatial Reasoning, Measurement, Data Analysis and Probability
Math Level B: Algebra II, Geometry, Trigonometry, Pre-Calculus
Math Level C: Trigonometry & Analytical Geometry, Calculus I & II, Differential Equations

Better! Any other suggestions?
Math Level A: Number Sense, Algebra I, Geometry and Spatial Reasoning, Measurement, Data Analysis and Probability (mostly for div B)
Math Level B: Algebra II, Analytical Geometry, Trigonometry, maybe precalc, idk what's covered in precalc (mostly for div C)
Math Level C: Calc, Differential equations (for the most part shouldn't be tested unless it's essential for the event)

Level C stuff is things that you normally don't learn until 12th grade, and I think is generally not vital to show a deep understanding of the topic. Considering a senior cap of 7 people, over half the team has not reached this point, and I believe that how well you perform should rely on what classes you've taken as little as possible, and instead rely on the time and effort you have put into the event.
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Re: Math Ability of Competitors

Post by knightmoves »

JoeyC wrote:I agree in with Selundar in this; most physics events are about more advanced topics than one should be expected to cover normally - the very point of Science Olympiad.
It's not unreasonable and should actually be encouraged that competitors should learn math skills outside of what they already've learned (especially if it's just a bit of trig or even a simple differential) to take tests.
(yes differentials could be counted as calculus, but simple ones are easy enough compared to integrals and rieman sums)
Certainly SO is about studying beyond a normal school syllabus, but for SO to be successful, it has to be accessible to relatively normal people, and not just the elite. Let's take B division Optics as an example, because it's been raised here already. You give normal bright middle school kids the opportunity to learn some basic optics, get excited about physics, and understand the concepts. That's what SO is for.

Do you need more advanced math to understand the concepts? No, you really don't.

Suppose you have a question about radioactive decay - perhaps it's something to do with carbon dating, or radiation safety - it doesn't really mater what. You can pose a question involving an integer number of half-lives, where the answer can be determined by repeated halving or doubling, or you could pose a question requiring logs or exponentials to compute the answer. In what way does the second question test a person's understanding of the science better than the first?

It doesn't - it's a math test.

If you fill SO with needlessly advanced math (hello, person who wanted to set a question about sinusoids because he didn't know anything about ocean waves) you will scare people away.

The report from SOSI in this thread is that most competitors are already horrible at the questions where they have to use mathematical reasoning to compute answers. How does setting harder math questions improve SO? How does it make science attractive to more people? How, in fact, does it do anything except test whether people have learned more advanced math?

If you really need math beyond what a normal bright middle-school kid would encounter in order to cover the concepts you want to cover at the B level, then fine - call it out on the rulesheet and be done with it. But I don't think it serves the goals of SO to force more advanced math unless you really have to.
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Re: Math Ability of Competitors

Post by Umaroth »

TheCrazyChemist wrote:
drcubbin wrote:
Umaroth wrote: I'm fairly sure he was talking about Div C here.
Correct Umaroth. This is just a "suggestion" which is why level C would be mainly for Div C events requiring advanced levels of math skills. It would also give "math kids" new to SciOly an idea of which events they might excel in. And yes, CrazyChemist, I think we can all agree differential equations are a bit much for Div B, but I did say, "Don't hold me to what I am including here. These are just off the top of my head." If anyone would like to add/subtract from these categories, or even make a Level D, I would be curious to see what develops in this discussion.
I would put Algebra 1 in Level A just because I don't think that it really fits with Algebra 2, Trig, and Pre-Calc. Algebra 1 is mostly linear stuff in my experience. But again, that's my experience.
I definitely agree with all of this and it is kind of strange to me why they did not have these guidelines in the first place. Having such a tiered system for mathematical knowledge would make everything much easier for test writers and competitors.
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Re: Math Ability of Competitors

Post by Unome »

primitive_polonium wrote:
drcubbin wrote:I think most of the students who do the physics events are pretty aware of what to expect, but maybe (just a suggestion) an addition to event "Description", such as "Impound: Yes or No" or "Eye Protection: B or C" there could be a Math Level: A, B or C (but not limited to)
Math Level A: Number Sense, Algebra, Geometry and Spatial Reasoning, Measurement, Data Analysis and Probability
Math Level B: Algebra I & II, Geometry, Trigonometry, Pre-Calculus
Math Level C: Trigonometry & Analytical Geometry, Calculus I & II, Differential Equations
* Don't hold me to what I am including here. These are just off the top of my head.
I like the idea of having descriptive* math levels, not necessarily to filter for difficulty, but to give test writers a better sense of what kinds of questions the rules were meant to inspire. I imagine some of the rules out there could be interpreted in different ways, since topics are sometimes just listed (eg: Chem Lab had "magnetism" last year, and I definitely interpreted that differently from what other people did...).

That said, the quality of the questions really depends on who's writing them (and by extension, how clear the rules are). Issues with math difficulty usually stem from topic ambiguity or people trying to make hard/easier questions but not knowing how. I've seen difficult questions that didn't require more than algebra I, and I've seen underwhelming/off topic questions written with calculus. But test-writing is something that is a lot more difficult to train, and there are many different schools of thought as to what a good exam is. Different can of worms.

One reservation I have about putting math difficulty levels on rules is that I'm worried SOINC will undershoot when tying difficulties to classes. Case in point: Chem Lab is tied to "first year [chemistry] high school courses". Besides the fact that first year chem classes have ridiculous fluctuations in difficulty (ranging from "can get top 150 in ChemOly on the first try" to "thinks NaCl has sodium, carbon and iodine in it"), it makes it so that an exam written to those specifications might not be as good in separating teams or being intellectually stimulating.** It'd be bad if physics events were capped at Algebra I and below, which I could see SOINC doing.

*Descriptive being more specific, not refering to any field of science/math that may have the word "descriptive" in it.
**This isn't to make fun of kids starting out in chemistry; it's just at the states and nationals level, most teams are sending second or third or even fourth year chemistry students to compete. I also suspect this is why the Chem Lab Nats exam often gets complaints of being too conceptually easy, since the rules themselves are on the easier side.
You got here first so... I'm just going to second all of this :P
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Re: Math Ability of Competitors

Post by builderguy135 »

drcubbin wrote:
I would put Algebra 1 in Level A just because I don't think that it really fits with Algebra 2, Trig, and Pre-Calc. Algebra 1 is mostly linear stuff in my experience. But again, that's my experience.
Math Level A: Number Sense, Algebra I, Geometry and Spatial Reasoning, Measurement, Data Analysis and Probability
Math Level B: Algebra II, Geometry, Trigonometry, Pre-Calculus
Math Level C: Trigonometry & Analytical Geometry, Calculus I & II, Differential Equations

Better! Any other suggestions?
Honestly, this seems like a great idea. Would be great to have a system that made tests more consistent in difficulty across competitions.
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Re: Math Ability of Competitors

Post by JoeyC »

drcubbin wrote:
I would put Algebra 1 in Level A just because I don't think that it really fits with Algebra 2, Trig, and Pre-Calc. Algebra 1 is mostly linear stuff in my experience. But again, that's my experience.
Math Level A: Number Sense, Algebra I, Geometry and Spatial Reasoning, Measurement, Data Analysis and Probability
Math Level B: Algebra II, Geometry, Trigonometry, Pre-Calculus
Math Level C: Trigonometry & Analytical Geometry, Calculus I & II, Differential Equations

Better! Any other suggestions?
I mean, I guess if we're talking about the upper bound, we could include stats in Math Level C (if needed for the event), just to cover all bases on what top tier tests can ask, but great job!
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Re: Math Ability of Competitors

Post by gz839918 »

JoeyC wrote:
drcubbin wrote:
I would put Algebra 1 in Level A just because I don't think that it really fits with Algebra 2, Trig, and Pre-Calc. Algebra 1 is mostly linear stuff in my experience. But again, that's my experience.
Math Level A: Number Sense, Algebra I, Geometry and Spatial Reasoning, Measurement, Data Analysis and Probability
Math Level B: Algebra II, Geometry, Trigonometry, Pre-Calculus
Math Level C: Trigonometry & Analytical Geometry, Calculus I & II, Differential Equations

Better! Any other suggestions?
I mean, I guess if we're talking about the upper bound, we could include stats in Math Level C (if needed for the event), just to cover all bases on what top tier tests can ask, but great job!
While I am with you that statistics would come rather late in high school for many people, I do not think it may be a good idea to lump it in with other math classes like calculus. Disease Detectives already includes a notable amount of overlap with content from AP Statistics, and I feel that marking an event as Math Level C mainly for the sake of stats would give the green light to certain event supervisors to go ahead and put calculus and diff eq into some tests which only really needed stats. Statistics is unlike traditional "sequenced" math courses since statistics requires context and awareness of situation, rather than numerical deftness or logical proof. At my university, statistics isn't even in the same department as math. Putting stats in Level C could give people the wrong idea. Possibly a Math Level S could be designated for advanced statistics (and leave basic stats for Level A)??
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Re: Math Ability of Competitors

Post by drcubbin »

gz839918 wrote:
JoeyC wrote:
drcubbin wrote:
Math Level A: Number Sense, Algebra I, Geometry and Spatial Reasoning, Measurement, Data Analysis and Probability
Math Level B: Algebra II, Geometry, Trigonometry, Pre-Calculus
Math Level C: Trigonometry & Analytical Geometry, Calculus I & II, Differential Equations

Better! Any other suggestions?
I mean, I guess if we're talking about the upper bound, we could include stats in Math Level C (if needed for the event), just to cover all bases on what top tier tests can ask, but great job!
While I am with you that statistics would come rather late in high school for many people, I do not think it may be a good idea to lump it in with other math classes like calculus. Disease Detectives already includes a notable amount of overlap with content from AP Statistics, and I feel that marking an event as Math Level C mainly for the sake of stats would give the green light to certain event supervisors to go ahead and put calculus and diff eq into some tests which only really needed stats. Statistics is unlike traditional "sequenced" math courses since statistics requires context and awareness of situation, rather than numerical deftness or logical proof. At my university, statistics isn't even in the same department as math. Putting stats in Level C could give people the wrong idea. Possibly a Math Level S could be designated for advanced statistics (and leave basic stats for Level A)??
I was thinking the same thing, and for that reason (Disease Detectives), statistics should likely be added to Math Level B.

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