Math Ability of Competitors

[EastStroudsburg13]

First of all, cranky test writers are no good for competitors. We want good tests, and so do most other people. Second, I don't think you're exactly old EastStroudsburg13....

Granted, but if implementing a simple math guideline can make test writers cranky, I have very little sympathy. There are plenty of test writers out there that will deal with it.

I wrote that pretty quickly, so admittedly that specific part about being miffed or w/e was meh...at the same time, I'd still say:
1. Of course these things require more thought...so why not discuss "forum post thought experiments"? I more mean, why even bring it up then? If it's not appropriate for the thread, just chatting for fun, or just don't feel like it, eh, I get that w/e. Sometimes I just like to discuss things...
2. I mainly wanted to focus on newer writers, but I could be a bit more general. I mean, other guidelines exist like the legendary calculator one or sig figs...it could be another thing to add to the test writing guide here on scioly.org maybe, but I feel like soinc already has a ton of guidelines that many aren't even aware of. That's on top of already learning all about rules, FAQs, etc. People even have trouble following the rules, so...that's all I'm trying to say.

1. It was an example. I'm not all that interested in discussing exactly what math should be recommended where, but if other people want to discuss that, they can feel free to.
2. To me, this just sounds like soinc should do a better job of communicating, implementing, and/or streamlining its rules and guidelines. But I guess, in that same vein, defining math guidelines isn't a super high priority anyway, though I also don't really know what soinc is prioritizing these days anyway.

[knightmoves]

I think putting trig questions on a test that a pair of sixth graders might be taking is completely unreasonable, unless you explicitly call out basic trig on the rulesheet. Yes, of course smart sixth graders can be taught basic trig - but in most cases, they are not.

B events pretty much all permit a basic 4-function calculator, but don't require anything more advanced. That should tell you that logs and trig functions should be off the table.

For C events, I'm sure I've seen the statement that Calculus should not be required written somewhere, which implies that relevant math normally taught before Calculus in schools should be OK. But it's got to be relevant. Someone on the previous page suggested asking for the equation for a particular sinusioid on a B-division DP test. That's not a question about oceanography, and it's unnecessary.

[Selundar]

As someone who focuses a lot on physics events, I have to say I was pretty disappointed about the lack of math on tests in division B. This was especially true for Optics at my state tournament where I remember there being very little math, if any at all. I feel like math is such an important part of physics events and a lot of substance was lost by excluding it. I agree with East that the level of math expected should be outlined better in the rules, but I would support more math being present in physics events at least.

I believe one of the main goals of Science Olympiad is to get students to learn subjects outside of the classroom that might normally be covered in a class far in their future. In the case of Optics, division B competitors are expected to learn the material at a level comparable to what might be taught in an AP Physics 2 class or equivalent. Is it then so unreasonable for competitors to be expected to learn a little trigonometry, which is so crucial to the study of light and optics in general?

A lot of invitational tests for Optics that I took asked questions about Snell's Law, which is supposed to be a division C only topic. While those questions were definitely against the rules, I think most teams would be able to learn the basics of how the sine function works without spending an insane amount of time on it. The rules should definitely be clear about the level of math required, but I would also like to see the physics events be a little more inclusive of math.

ngl it can also be pretty annoying in RFTS when you're asked how brightness changes when distance is doubled or tripled for the 100th time.

[JoeyC]

I agree in with Selundar in this; most physics events are about more advanced topics than one should be expected to cover normally - the very point of Science Olympiad.
It's not unreasonable and should actually be encouraged that competitors should learn math skills outside of what they already've learned (especially if it's just a bit of trig or even a simple differential) to take tests.
(yes differentials could be counted as calculus, but simple ones are easy enough compared to integrals and rieman sums)

[drcubbin]

I think most of the students who do the physics events are pretty aware of what to expect, but maybe (just a suggestion) an addition to event "Description", such as "Impound: Yes or No" or "Eye Protection: B or C" there could be a Math Level: A, B or C (but not limited to)
Math Level A: Number Sense, Algebra, Geometry and Spatial Reasoning, Measurement, Data Analysis and Probability
Math Level B: Algebra I & II, Geometry, Trigonometry, Pre-Calculus
Math Level C: Trigonometry & Analytical Geometry, Calculus I & II, Differential Equations
* Don't hold me to what I am including here. These are just off the top of my head.

[EastStroudsburg13]

I think most of the students who do the physics events are pretty aware of what to expect, but maybe (just a suggestion) an addition to event "Description", such as "Impound: Yes or No" or "Eye Protection: B or C" there could be a Math Level: A, B or C (but not limited to)
Math Level A: Number Sense, Algebra, Geometry and Spatial Reasoning, Measurement, Data Analysis and Probability
Math Level B: Algebra I & II, Geometry, Trigonometry, Pre-Calculus
Math Level C: Trigonometry & Analytical Geometry, Calculus I & II, Differential Equations
* Don't hold me to what I am including here. These are just off the top of my head.

I would support something like this. An explanation that these are recommended and not required could also be included somewhere (that way we don't get appeals based on math level).

[TheCrazyChemist]

I agree in with Selundar in this; most physics events are about more advanced topics than one should be expected to cover normally - the very point of Science Olympiad.
It's not unreasonable and should actually be encouraged that competitors should learn math skills outside of what they already've learned (especially if it's just a bit of trig or even a simple differential) to take tests.
(yes differentials could be counted as calculus, but simple ones are easy enough compared to integrals and rieman sums)

I don't think that it should be expected of Div. B competitors to learn differentials.... I agree that the math for Div. B should get a little bit harder, as thermodynamics this year was very much plug and chug, or derive another formula for something. But differentials for Div. B is taking it too far.... Especially considering that 6th graders could be taking those tests. The point of the math is to do it and it gives you the answer, but isn't Science Olympiad saying that people are comparing science skills, not math? None the less, there has to be math, but differentials shouldn't be on a Div. B test, because by doing that, you expect 6th graders to know pre-calculus when they probably haven't even taken geometry yet..

[Umaroth]

I agree in with Selundar in this; most physics events are about more advanced topics than one should be expected to cover normally - the very point of Science Olympiad.
It's not unreasonable and should actually be encouraged that competitors should learn math skills outside of what they already've learned (especially if it's just a bit of trig or even a simple differential) to take tests.
(yes differentials could be counted as calculus, but simple ones are easy enough compared to integrals and rieman sums)

I don't think that it should be expected of Div. B competitors to learn differentials.... I agree that the math for Div. B should get a little bit harder, as thermodynamics this year was very much plug and chug, or derive another formula for something. But differentials for Div. B is taking it too far.... Especially considering that 6th graders could be taking those tests. The point of the math is to do it and it gives you the answer, but isn't Science Olympiad saying that people are comparing science skills, not math? None the less, there has to be math, but differentials shouldn't be on a Div. B test, because by doing that, you expect 6th graders to know pre-calculus when they probably haven't even taken geometry yet..

I'm fairly sure he was talking about Div C here.

[drcubbin]

I agree in with Selundar in this; most physics events are about more advanced topics than one should be expected to cover normally - the very point of Science Olympiad.
It's not unreasonable and should actually be encouraged that competitors should learn math skills outside of what they already've learned (especially if it's just a bit of trig or even a simple differential) to take tests.
(yes differentials could be counted as calculus, but simple ones are easy enough compared to integrals and rieman sums)

I don't think that it should be expected of Div. B competitors to learn differentials.... I agree that the math for Div. B should get a little bit harder, as thermodynamics this year was very much plug and chug, or derive another formula for something. But differentials for Div. B is taking it too far.... Especially considering that 6th graders could be taking those tests. The point of the math is to do it and it gives you the answer, but isn't Science Olympiad saying that people are comparing science skills, not math? None the less, there has to be math, but differentials shouldn't be on a Div. B test, because by doing that, you expect 6th graders to know pre-calculus when they probably haven't even taken geometry yet..

I'm fairly sure he was talking about Div C here.

Correct Umaroth. This is just a "suggestion" which is why level C would be mainly for Div C events requiring advanced levels of math skills. It would also give "math kids" new to SciOly an idea of which events they might excel in. And yes, CrazyChemist, I think we can all agree differential equations are a bit much for Div B, but I did say, "Don't hold me to what I am including here. These are just off the top of my head." If anyone would like to add/subtract from these categories, or even make a Level D, I would be curious to see what develops in this discussion.

[TheCrazyChemist]

I don't think that it should be expected of Div. B competitors to learn differentials.... I agree that the math for Div. B should get a little bit harder, as thermodynamics this year was very much plug and chug, or derive another formula for something. But differentials for Div. B is taking it too far.... Especially considering that 6th graders could be taking those tests. The point of the math is to do it and it gives you the answer, but isn't Science Olympiad saying that people are comparing science skills, not math? None the less, there has to be math, but differentials shouldn't be on a Div. B test, because by doing that, you expect 6th graders to know pre-calculus when they probably haven't even taken geometry yet..

I'm fairly sure he was talking about Div C here.

Correct Umaroth. This is just a "suggestion" which is why level C would be mainly for Div C events requiring advanced levels of math skills. It would also give "math kids" new to SciOly an idea of which events they might excel in. And yes, CrazyChemist, I think we can all agree differential equations are a bit much for Div B, but I did say, "Don't hold me to what I am including here. These are just off the top of my head." If anyone would like to add/subtract from these categories, or even make a Level D, I would be curious to see what develops in this discussion.

I would put Algebra 1 in Level A just because I don't think that it really fits with Algebra 2, Trig, and Pre-Calc. Algebra 1 is mostly linear stuff in my experience. But again, that's my experience.