Scioly.org

XJcwolfyX wrote:

twisty14 wrote:

XJcwolfyX wrote:That would be Thermal to Thermal. (It says on teh sample ETL that is posted on Soinc.org)

The ETL sample sheet on sonic.org is only a reference for format(Section 4c. In Rules), not interpreting energy transfers. It only hurts you to not claim every possible thing that you can. NiChrome Igniting a match, in my opinion, would be:
NiChrome heating head of match (Thermal-Thermal)
Heat from NiChrome ignites match(Thermal-Chemical)
Chemical reaction creates heat. (Chemical-Thermal)
Just because a transfer is small doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

If you can get by with that, then kudos to you.
I'd just rather play safe than sorry, and always, these aren't in anyway official clarifications, they're just opinions.

There is no controversy to it. Without any of those transfers the match wouldn't give off its energy(heat). Saying nichrome igniting a match is only thermal to thermal would be a waste of time. Nothing, not even gypsie magic, besides the ignition of the chemicals on the head of the match will cause the match to give off its thermal energy. It'd only be your loss for not claiming something that you can prove exists, with science, on your mission possible. If you want to convince the judges of any transfer, As long as its actually there, then you have to show them through science. Remember,

twisty14 wrote:
There is no controversy to it.

I'm no so sure about this. Just look back through this thread and I'll also point you to rule 3.e. We might be issuing a FAQ about this very soon....

chalker wrote:
I'll also point you to rule 3.e. We might be issuing a FAQ about this very soon....

For those of you interested, here is rule 3.e.

"The Five Basic Energy Forms used in transfers that will count for points are electrical, mechanical, thermal, chemical, and electromagnetic spectrum (radio, visible, and infrared light only). Batteries, candles, small rocket igniters, etc., may receive points determined by the way they cause the next action."

chalker wrote:
We might be issuing a FAQ about this very soon....

That sounds good, that specific bullet point gets vague in that last sentence...

XJcwolfyX wrote:

chalker wrote:
I'll also point you to rule 3.e. We might be issuing a FAQ about this very soon....

For those of you interested, here is rule 3.e.

"The Five Basic Energy Forms used in transfers that will count for points are electrical, mechanical, thermal, chemical, and electromagnetic spectrum (radio, visible, and infrared light only). Batteries, candles, small rocket igniters, etc., may receive points determined by the way they cause the next action."

chalker wrote:
We might be issuing a FAQ about this very soon....

That sounds good, that specific bullet point gets vague in that last sentence...

This portion of the rules basically says that you will get points based on what the transfer actually does. For example there a multiple ways to utilize a match.
1. One way is to heat something up.(Thermal),
2. another way is through the use of the light(EM transfer) made by the flame.(let's say photo resistor, which would be a very weak transfer).

Lets say you chose to utilize the heat (thermal transfer) of the match. You'd get points for Thermal-Whatever. This rule establishes that, in this situation, just because the match is creating light, you won't get EM points for a thermal transfer like that. The EM had nothing to do with the transfer, thus, no EM points for the transfer. It is all based on the setup, if your transfers are set up in a way that you need every single transfer you claim(in depth of course) then there won't be a problem.

twisty14 wrote:

XJcwolfyX wrote:

chalker wrote:
I'll also point you to rule 3.e. We might be issuing a FAQ about this very soon....

For those of you interested, here is rule 3.e.

"The Five Basic Energy Forms used in transfers that will count for points are electrical, mechanical, thermal, chemical, and electromagnetic spectrum (radio, visible, and infrared light only). Batteries, candles, small rocket igniters, etc., may receive points determined by the way they cause the next action."

chalker wrote:
We might be issuing a FAQ about this very soon....

That sounds good, that specific bullet point gets vague in that last sentence...

This portion of the rules basically says that you will get points based on what the transfer actually does. For example there a multiple ways to utilize a match.
1. One way is to heat something up.(Thermal),
2. another way is through the use of the light(EM transfer) made by the flame.(let's say photo resistor, which would be a very weak transfer).

Lets say you chose to utilize the heat (thermal transfer) of the match. You'd get points for Thermal-Whatever. This rule establishes that, in this situation, just because the match is creating light, you won't get EM points for a thermal transfer like that. The EM had nothing to do with the transfer, thus, no EM points for the transfer. It is all based on the setup, if your transfers are set up in a way that you need every single transfer you claim(in depth of course) then there won't be a problem.

So theoretically, you could claim chemical--> thermal, because the chemicals are what is causing the heat in the match?

Phys1cs wrote:
So theoretically, you could claim chemical--> thermal, because the chemicals are what is causing the heat in the match?

Yes, as long as its clear that the heat from the nichrome is not triggering the step that the match is supposed to. It worked for me. While I didn't use matches in my mission I had a close substitute. I haven't had any problems with judges at all

twisty14 wrote:

Phys1cs wrote:
So theoretically, you could claim chemical--> thermal, because the chemicals are what is causing the heat in the match?

Yes, as long as its clear that the heat from the nichrome is not triggering the step that the match is supposed to. It worked for me. While I didn't use matches in my mission I had a close substitute. I haven't had any problems with judges at all

I think one of the issues with using unaltered matches is that you didn't create the transfer to chemical, it's built into the match. There for sure is a chemical energy step in the middle, but it's part of the match's "black box." (Although that doesn't apply to you since you're not using exactly matches). If that is the issue, I'd be curious to know whether modifying or extracting the match tip chemicals would solve the problem. With substitutes I would be worried if it gets classified as an unsafe chemical since it's not explicitly allowed like matches are.

FawnOnyx wrote:

twisty14 wrote:

Phys1cs wrote:
So theoretically, you could claim chemical--> thermal, because the chemicals are what is causing the heat in the match?

Yes, as long as its clear that the heat from the nichrome is not triggering the step that the match is supposed to. It worked for me. While I didn't use matches in my mission I had a close substitute. I haven't had any problems with judges at all

I think one of the issues with using unaltered matches is that you didn't create the transfer to chemical, it's built into the match. There for sure is a chemical energy step in the middle, but it's part of the match's "black box." (Although that doesn't apply to you since you're not using exactly matches). If that is the issue, I'd be curious to know whether modifying or extracting the match tip chemicals would solve the problem. With substitutes I would be worried if it gets classified as an unsafe chemical since it's not explicitly allowed like matches are.

Very good point actually. While black box isn't in the rules, it can both help and hurt sometimes. Extracting the chemicals wouldn't be worth the risk of being declared unsafe, or the time.

What do you guys think about a rack and pinion time managing device? It's basically gears moving (powered by a motor). I thought we could adjust it to give us more or less time. However, in the rules, it states that all time adjusting tasks in the MP should be non-electrical at the start, middle, and end of that task. So would a rack and pinion get us DQ'ed?

Also, when scoring for time, if you go over the specified time, do you still get the points for "every second up to the time" and THEN get deductions for going over? Or is it JUST deductions?

drifter601 wrote:What do you guys think about a rack and pinion time managing device? It's basically gears moving (powered by a motor). I thought we could adjust it to give us more or less time. However, in the rules, it states that all time adjusting tasks in the MP should be non-electrical at the start, middle, and end of that task. So would a rack and pinion get us DQ'ed?

Also, when scoring for time, if you go over the specified time, do you still get the points for "every second up to the time" and THEN get deductions for going over? Or is it JUST deductions?

That would be a DQ. Here's a link to a rule clarification, it's slightly different but works the same. http://www.soinc.org/node/1326

As for the timing points. From my understanding you get both sets of points, even if you go past. Once you get to the nationals level though the timing points are vital. You need every point you can get.