Mission Possible C

[marty3]

I ran into some trouble at regionals with my mechanical timer. I used coffee filters to slowly drip water into a container and complete an electrical circuit( which is also a scorable action). However, the event proctor told me that it could only be counted as a mechanical timer, and I couldn't get points for it being a scorable action. When I looked at the rules, it said:

"To receive Bonus Points, participants must designate an action, either scorable or non-scorable, taking
over 30 seconds that does not use electricity or springs for power"

I take this to mean that you can receive timer points for a designated action in addition to any points it receives for being scorable. I'm pretty sure the proctor was wrong, but I'm not sure for states. Does anyone have any clarification on this?

You were absolutely correct. I don't mean to be offensive to the better ES's, but a large proportion of regionals proctors don't really know the rules as well as the students. Therefore, you should print a copy of the rules to take with you. States should, in theory, be much, much better.

You are correct that the underlying action should still be scored, with timing points added as a bonus. However, because you have an electrical sensor that is actively sensing for a completed circuit for longer than 10 seconds, this risks being considered an electrical timer (which not only receives no bonus points, but also gets a penalty).

In what way is an open circuit an electrical sensor?

[nicholasmaurer]

You were absolutely correct. I don't mean to be offensive to the better ES's, but a large proportion of regionals proctors don't really know the rules as well as the students. Therefore, you should print a copy of the rules to take with you. States should, in theory, be much, much better.

You are correct that the underlying action should still be scored, with timing points added as a bonus. However, because you have an electrical sensor that is actively sensing for a completed circuit for longer than 10 seconds, this risks being considered an electrical timer (which not only receives no bonus points, but also gets a penalty).

In what way is an open circuit an electrical sensor?

In the described build, there is an a device (the open circuit) which measures a physical property (whether there is water/a conductor present) in order to determine when the next action starts. That defines a sensor. I think it's also clear the sensor is electrical in nature, as it is effectively sensing resistance and is powered by electricity. A solubility meter that measures dissolved solids in water, and multi-meters (in certain modes), are essentially just open circuits as well. I would feel comfortable calling these electrical sensors.

Technically, the phrase electrical sensor does not appear in the rules. Rather, 3.i. issues a blanket prohibition on any action "powered by electricity" lasting longer than 10 seconds. This action is (arguably) powered by electricity and was designed to last long than 10 seconds. Therefore, I think it runs afoul of 3.i. and I have seen it consistently enforced as such across invitationals in Ohio. I recognize that other states (SoCal) have established different interpretations in their State FAQs. Once again, a national FAQ would be extremely helpful, and I encourage teams to pursue those where necessary.

[Tesel]

You are correct that the underlying action should still be scored, with timing points added as a bonus. However, because you have an electrical sensor that is actively sensing for a completed circuit for longer than 10 seconds, this risks being considered an electrical timer (which not only receives no bonus points, but also gets a penalty).

In what way is an open circuit an electrical sensor?

In the described build, there is an a device (the open circuit) which measures a physical property (whether there is water/a conductor present) in order to determine when the next action starts. That defines a sensor. I think it's also clear the sensor is electrical in nature, as it is effectively sensing resistance and is powered by electricity. A solubility meter that measures dissolved solids in water, and multi-meters (in certain modes), are essentially just open circuits as well. I would feel comfortable calling these electrical sensors.

Technically, the phrase electrical sensor does not appear in the rules. Rather, 3.i. issues a blanket prohibition on any action "powered by electricity" lasting longer than 10 seconds. This action is (arguably) powered by electricity and was designed to last long than 10 seconds. Therefore, I think it runs afoul of 3.i. and I have seen it consistently enforced as such across invitationals in Ohio. I recognize that other states (SoCal) have established different interpretations in their State FAQs. Once again, a national FAQ would be extremely helpful, and I encourage teams to pursue those where necessary.

I would argue that being powered by electricity would refer to the mechanics of the action itself, e.g. a pump running throughout the task to transport water. I'm not sure, though, about the electrical sensor stipulation, since that is definitely a problem with the task described.

[nicholasmaurer]

In what way is an open circuit an electrical sensor?

In the described build, there is an a device (the open circuit) which measures a physical property (whether there is water/a conductor present) in order to determine when the next action starts. That defines a sensor. I think it's also clear the sensor is electrical in nature, as it is effectively sensing resistance and is powered by electricity. A solubility meter that measures dissolved solids in water, and multi-meters (in certain modes), are essentially just open circuits as well. I would feel comfortable calling these electrical sensors.

Technically, the phrase electrical sensor does not appear in the rules. Rather, 3.i. issues a blanket prohibition on any action "powered by electricity" lasting longer than 10 seconds. This action is (arguably) powered by electricity and was designed to last long than 10 seconds. Therefore, I think it runs afoul of 3.i. and I have seen it consistently enforced as such across invitationals in Ohio. I recognize that other states (SoCal) have established different interpretations in their State FAQs. Once again, a national FAQ would be extremely helpful, and I encourage teams to pursue those where necessary.

I would argue that being powered by electricity would refer to the mechanics of the action itself, e.g. a pump running throughout the task to transport water. I'm not sure, though, about the electrical sensor stipulation, since that is definitely a problem with the task described.

That is definitely a valid argument. Personally, I think this case follows the spirit of the rules (what the rule writer's intended), but unfortunately still violates the text. Without an FAQ, I would interpret the rule as follows: the circuit/sensor is part of the action as described in the ASL and it is powered by electricity. Therefore, it is subject to 3.i. This has been a consistent interpretation I have seen (at least in Ohio) all season by several different ES.

[PM2017]

In the described build, there is an a device (the open circuit) which measures a physical property (whether there is water/a conductor present) in order to determine when the next action starts. That defines a sensor. I think it's also clear the sensor is electrical in nature, as it is effectively sensing resistance and is powered by electricity. A solubility meter that measures dissolved solids in water, and multi-meters (in certain modes), are essentially just open circuits as well. I would feel comfortable calling these electrical sensors.

Technically, the phrase electrical sensor does not appear in the rules. Rather, 3.i. issues a blanket prohibition on any action "powered by electricity" lasting longer than 10 seconds. This action is (arguably) powered by electricity and was designed to last long than 10 seconds. Therefore, I think it runs afoul of 3.i. and I have seen it consistently enforced as such across invitationals in Ohio. I recognize that other states (SoCal) have established different interpretations in their State FAQs. Once again, a national FAQ would be extremely helpful, and I encourage teams to pursue those where necessary.

I would argue that being powered by electricity would refer to the mechanics of the action itself, e.g. a pump running throughout the task to transport water. I'm not sure, though, about the electrical sensor stipulation, since that is definitely a problem with the task described.

That is definitely a valid argument. Personally, I think this case follows the spirit of the rules (what the rule writer's intended), but unfortunately still violates the text. Without an FAQ, I would interpret the rule as follows: the circuit/sensor is part of the action as described in the ASL and it is powered by electricity. Therefore, it is subject to 3.i. This has been a consistent interpretation I have seen (at least in Ohio) all season by several different ES.

Does this not cause all water tasks not in the first ten seconds to be violations?

[nicholasmaurer]

I would argue that being powered by electricity would refer to the mechanics of the action itself, e.g. a pump running throughout the task to transport water. I'm not sure, though, about the electrical sensor stipulation, since that is definitely a problem with the task described.

That is definitely a valid argument. Personally, I think this case follows the spirit of the rules (what the rule writer's intended), but unfortunately still violates the text. Without an FAQ, I would interpret the rule as follows: the circuit/sensor is part of the action as described in the ASL and it is powered by electricity. Therefore, it is subject to 3.i. This has been a consistent interpretation I have seen (at least in Ohio) all season by several different ES.

Does this not cause all water tasks not in the first ten seconds to be violations?

No. If you read 3.i. it makes it clear that an electrically-powered action cannot take longer than 10 seconds. That time is from the start of the action, not the start of the entire device. Electrical devices (e.g. sensors, Arduinos, etc.) can be powered in the background so long as they are not in use as part of an action for longer than 10 seconds.

[nicholasmaurer]

I am still receiving PMs about this. So to clarify - for the water task, I think there are three possible cases:

1. A device that takes less than 10 seconds to complete the water task/close the circuit using water. This device clearly follows 3.i. and doesn't involve any of the special timer rules.

2. A device that takes longer than 10 seconds to complete the water task/closer the circuit using water. This is the most ambiguous case, as it depends upon your interpretation of "powered by electricity" from 3.i. I have consistently seen the 10 second limit applied to any action (scorable or non-scorable) that, as described in the ASL, involves the use of electricity in any way. Because the action description in 4.b.iv. explicitly requires the use of electricity, I have always considered this action to be subject to 3.i.

3. A device that takes longer than 10 seconds to complete the water task/closer the circuit using water AND which intends to use the water task as a mechanical timer. In addition to the potential 3.i. issue I identified above, the device cannot receive timing bonus points because of the 11/14/17 FAQ which prohibits the use of an electrical sensor for all timers. I think my previous post justifies why I consider this to be an electrical sensor.

I have also received a PM asking whether a switch closing an electrical circuit would constitute an electrical sensor, and I think it hinges on the phrasing of the ASL. If you have an action that takes longer than ten seconds and triggers a switch, the ASL should clearly separate the mechanical portion (pushing the switch) from the electrical portion (completing the circuit). For example, the following would be legal even if step 1 took longer than ten seconds:

1. Balloon expands and pushes Switch A
2. Switch A completes a circuit, turning on a light bulb

In contrast, this ASL would be suspect if step 1 took longer than ten seconds:

1. Balloon expands and pushes Switch A to close the circuit (arguably this action now involves electrical power)
2. The light bulb turns on

In other words, you need to clearly delineate that electricity is outside the scope of the action that is taking longer than 10 seconds. I realize that this seems like a nit-picky approach to reviewing the ASL, but minor details in the ASL can also play a huge role in determining how to apply other rules (e.g. 4.i.) and is supported by the phrasing of 4.d. This is only an issue if the action is taking longer than 10 seconds by design; for any action that quickly pushes a switch, there is no need to be concerned.

[saathvik02]

I was told at my regional competition that the highest scores from each State would be released and wanted to know where to get that info.

[Kyanite]

I was told at my regional competition that the highest scores from each State would be released and wanted to know where to get that info.

Do you mean state scores for Mission? If so most states have not had their state competition yet.

[erico.vert]

No I think he is asking what the top scores were at the regional competitions. As in the highest score per region