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MP Fan wrote:
Sorry to be dense, but what is General Rule #2?

I haven't posted this in a while, so please don't take it personally as it is important info for everyone:

1. Grab your copy of the event rules. (You do have a copy right? If not, you need to talk to your coach about getting one since you can't compete without knowing the rules).
2. Look at the top of the page (if using the printed rules), or the bottom of the page (if using the mobile app). Notice where it says "Read the General Rules... as they apply to every event".
3. Either flip to the back inside cover of the rules manual, or go to www.soinc.org/ethics_rules to see the general rules
4. Be sure to review all 11 of them, since they apply to everyone.

chalker wrote:

MP Fan wrote:
Sorry to be dense, but what is General Rule #2?

I haven't posted this in a while, so please don't take it personally as it is important info for everyone:

1. Grab your copy of the event rules. (You do have a copy right? If not, you need to talk to your coach about getting one since you can't compete without knowing the rules).
2. Look at the top of the page (if using the printed rules), or the bottom of the page (if using the mobile app). Notice where it says "Read the General Rules... as they apply to every event".
3. Either flip to the back inside cover of the rules manual, or go to http://www.soinc.org/ethics_rules to see the general rules
4. Be sure to review all 11 of them, since they apply to everyone.

Ha ha. Thank you, Chalker. Yes, I'm familiar with all 46 sets of event rules (B & C) as well as the general rules. I thought maybe you were referring to some other standard.

Ok so rule 4b says that a transfer, to earn points, must be a different transfer than previously scored ones. This means that if you have two tranfers, both say mechanical to electrical, only one counts, right?

trivk96 wrote:Ok so rule 4b says that a transfer, to earn points, must be a different transfer than previously scored ones. This means that if you have two tranfers, both say mechanical to electrical, only one counts, right?

Yep

If you were to take a match and light it as an action, could you count it as mechanical to thermal to chemical to thermal? Because by striking the match mechanically, you generate heat (thermal). That heat allows the phosphorus lining of the match to chemically combust (chemical), and making a flame. The flame then burns fishing line or something (thermal). Is this an allowed series of transfers?

scramblingman wrote:If you were to take a match and light it as an action, could you count it as mechanical to thermal to chemical to thermal? Because by striking the match mechanically, you generate heat (thermal). That heat allows the phosphorus lining of the match to chemically combust (chemical), and making a flame. The flame then burns fishing line or something (thermal). Is this an allowed series of transfers?

Here's a semi-rhetorical question: do you think it's within the spirit of the competition to allow something as simple as striking a match to potentially count for 3 energy transfers (i.e. be worth 90 out of a total of 300 points possible for energy transfers)?

Thus the black box rule.

Flavorflav wrote:Thus the black box rule.

Lol how bout from now on we call it the black box rule of thumb or BBRT to make clear it's just a guideline one can use for squeezing out transfers from commercial devices. I think ultimately that's what it's about, and less about visibility since a lot of things it applies to aren't actually in a "black box."

The spirit of the rules seems like a really vague way to rule on these transfers though. ETL pre-approval by tournament supervisors would be nice though, since it'd be up to the supervisor's interpretation of the spirit of the rules.

Whether or not we think the Black Box Rule of Thumb (haha good idea ) seems fair doesn't change whether or not it's in the rules... that's the issue we have here. If it truly should exist, then I believe a clarification should be issued to delineate just how far it goes- otherwise competitors are in the dark, and not all ES's are so open to discussion with competitors before the competition.

And whether or not racking up transfers on a match is in the spirit of the competition (maybe it's not), I truly don't believe that "black box" transfers that ignore an intermediate energy form inside a commercial component and claim a direct transfer are in the spirit of the competition.

Potential way to clear this up that would seem most fair to me?
"Commercial energy transfer components may be used as scoreable transfers only if they transfer directly, without any intermediate energy types, between the input and output energy forms. All other commercial converters/transferrers will be scored as nonscoreable transfers." Allows motors, etc. but doesn't allow the "flashlight" example I keep giving or the many-transfer match strike. but that's just my opinion.

olympiaddict wrote:Whether or not we think the Black Box Rule of Thumb (haha good idea ) seems fair doesn't change whether or not it's in the rules... that's the issue we have here. If it truly should exist, then I believe a clarification should be issued to delineate just how far it goes- otherwise competitors are in the dark, and not all ES's are so open to discussion with competitors before the competition.

And whether or not racking up transfers on a match is in the spirit of the competition (maybe it's not), I truly don't believe that "black box" transfers that ignore an intermediate energy form inside a commercial component and claim a direct transfer are in the spirit of the competition.

Potential way to clear this up that would seem most fair to me?
"Commercial energy transfer components may be used as scoreable transfers only if they transfer directly, without any intermediate energy types, between the input and output energy forms. All other commercial converters/transferrers will be scored as nonscoreable transfers." Allows motors, etc. but doesn't allow the "flashlight" example I keep giving or the many-transfer match strike. but that's just my opinion.

I would second that sentiment. I will have to disagree with C. Chalker, there can be no "spirit of the rules" - it is either allowed by the rules or it is not.

Less than two weeks to state and I haven't heard from the event supervisor yet. I usually get the kids to build the thing so that all the tasks are "safe". Nothing questionable. This year I'm not certain where the line is.