Elastic Launched Glider C

[erikb]

In two events pl2 feels that he was denied the opportunity to truly do his best. And those that saw him at the gliders know how upset he was.

I'd like to suggest a little perspective here. All competitors were treated equally as far as I know and given the same 'opportunity'. Like most situations in life, achieving perfection is impossible due to external constraints placed on any endeavor. SO is oftentimes a microcosm of 'real world' science and engineering in that there are tradeoffs, unknown variables, and complicating factors that must be considered. Thus, while I sympathize with the sentiment of not being able to achieve what was thought to be the ideal or optimal performance, I have a minor issue with someone essentially thinking external factors actively contributed to that. As the saying goes, you need to prepare for all possible contingencies in order to truly be ready.

That is not true

All teams were not afforded equal opportunity. All the teams in the same air density could have trimmed in their gyms and then minor adjustments for the temp

Next, heavy gliders can fly in ventilated area while light gliders are slammed into the ground or the wings are torn off. Heavy gliders got two hours of trimming while light glides watched. There was a group of kids against the wall watching the others trim. We were not the only ones.

Giving some teams a distinct advantage while prohibiting others is not the same opportunity

For gravity vehicle it is. No one gets to get on the floor. That's fair. For mag lev they can adjust for the air density in their dorms. That's fair

For gliders you have to fly in those same conditions to trim.

So No, it is not the same if half the teams can come in and perform and the other half have to over come

That's the same as throwing sand on one gv track while the other is clean

What you said was a slap in the face to those kids that lost positions and possible medals. Not only did they have to stand there and watch others you are saying it's fair.

No chalker it's not the same as prohibiting access to other venues. In this case it was unfair. And you can't convince me that science o promotes unfair competition as character building

No one would say that setting up a system where some of th participants are denied oppertunity afforded to others is a fair competition

I am sorry if I come off rude. I sat for a long time and thought how can I say this in a way that does sound like i am being rude, but I could not. Unfortunity the longer I sat the more I stewed. So I decided to write before I got to the point where I would say something I would regret.


Maybe tomorrow I can. If you find this to be over the line I will try to think of a way to state my point that is not so rude

[chalker7]

That is not true

All teams were not afforded equal opportunity. All the teams in the same air density could have trimmed in their gyms and then minor adjustments for the temp

Next, heavy gliders can fly in ventilated area while light gliders are slammed into the ground or the wings are torn off. Heavy gliders got two hours of trimming while light glides watched. There was a group of kids against the wall watching the others trim. We were not the only ones.

Giving some teams a distinct advantage while prohibiting others is not the same opportunity

For gravity vehicle it is. No one gets to get on the floor. That's fair. For mag lev they can adjust for the air density in their dorms. That's fair

For gliders you have to fly in those same conditions to trim.

So No, it is not the same if half the teams can come in and perform and the other half have to over come

That's the same as throwing sand on one gv track while the other is clean

What you said was a slap in the face to those kids that lost positions and possible medals. Not only did they have to stand there and watch others you are saying it's fair.

No chalker it's not the same as prohibiting access to other venues. In this case it was unfair. And you can't convince me that science o promotes unfair competition as character building

No one would say that setting up a system where some of th participants are denied oppertunity afforded to others is a fair competition

I am sorry if I come off rude. I sat for a long time and thought how can I say this in a way that does sound like i am being rude, but I could not. Unfortunity the longer I sat the more I stewed. So I decided to write before I got to the point where I would say something I would regret.


Maybe tomorrow I can. If you find this to be over the line I will try to think of a way to state my point that is not so rude

This doesn't belong in the Robot Arm discussion. You are upset about the conditions in Elastic Launch Glider. I'd move the conversation over to that forum. I'd also suggest coming up with a suggested solution to these grievances. We emphatically and rigorously try to make the contest as fair as possible to everyone, but it isn't like we're able to reduce the air pressure in the room to match conditions at teams local venues, there are limits to what can and cannot be done.

[erikb]

I'd also suggest coming up with a suggested solution to these grievances. We emphatically and rigorously try to make the contest as fair as possible to everyone, but it isn't like we're able to reduce the air pressure in the room to match conditions at teams local venues, there are limits to what can and cannot be done.

I understand that home-field always gets an advantage. And i understand that prohibiting the venue is an attempt to make it fair to the teams that can't get time before the event. Teams that come in of friday would not be able to get time to fly because of opening ceremony. So those there on wed and thu would get an advantage.

It is a catch-22. I understand that.

A solution would be a different site opened that is large enough to accommodate gliders. That is open the friday afternoon until late friday night. With the air shut off. That way no one gets the advantage of venue but people from other areas can be on the same footing.

I don't have a solution. And i know no matter what you all do next year, someone will not be happy. I understand that also.

I will admit for my kids it was a gut check. However, what made me upset is there was a girl who came to the morning trim time. Her glider was pretty impressive. It came around and as it got close to the end of it's run, it was slammed into the ground breaking the fuselage. She was in tears as she walked out. Not only did she have to repair her glider she had no way to adjust for the repair. If she went in the morning, she had no way to overcome the breakage let alone get trimmed before her event. That is what was on my mind as i read your comments.

There is no need for further discussion. I think you were just unaware of how things played out.

[wlsguy]

....All teams were not afforded equal opportunity. ....

Hello. As the ELG event supervisor, I wanted to offer our perspective.

Things we can control:
-Air / Blowers
We requested the gym A/C to be turned off at 6am.
This was miscommunicated somehow within WSU and it took them until 8am to get it taken care of.
-Time / team
Because we had 10 teams / hour x 6 minutes each, no time was left during the competition to allow practice flights in the small area we were given.
We could not change the schedule since it was published and already communicated to all teams.

Things we cannot control:
-Access to the gym- WSU has a strict policy of making sure it's students receive the benefits they pay for. Exclusive access to the gym during the week, the gym is one of those benefits.
-Air density, we have no control over where you trimmed your gliders or other machines. I would expect teams could also claim the humidity level changes and affects their gliders and boomilevers but again, we cannot control the weather in your home state. Obviously one option would be to change the event to a build on-site to make it equal. This would benefit those teams who don't practice and hurt those that do (not something I favor).
-Your individual glider design- Yes, heavier gliders handle drafts better. Everyone received 2 hours with the air on and 15 minutes with it off. How you use the time is up to you.

We tried to run the contest and be fair and equal to all teams for the things within our control. I'm sorry you feel your team was treated otherwise

[erikb]

Here is a video of one of the flights.

What it shows is the underside of the launching mechanism. Pitch and roll are controlled by two pivot points in the base close to the launching surface and a ruler on the other side is used to measure pull back. (yaw is constant since you are pulling it in a straight line back)

The arm length is adjustable. So the kids can also get the right combinations of angles and then because the arm length is set for their arm size they can mimic the angles to free hand launch in ama events. And be close enough that they can do the minor angle tweaks off the launcher during the competition.

But, i will warn you all, if you get your glider trimmed one day and come back the next and do a full launch your glider will crash because temp and humidity have changed. Lift has changed. Everyday you have to start over with trimming. Launching it at full force on a day will slam it right into the ceiling or stall and nose dive into the ground. Exact same settings different outcomes.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_kPRJoQsKwE

While it is good for competition, what it really does is cuts down on glider breakage as you trim your glider and get used to how it behaves. Because you can adjust fractions of an angle so the glider does not roll back and crash into the ground or stall and nose dive. That way you don't have to start trimming over every time you have to glue something from a crashed glider. And, with enough breaks and glue your glider will no longer be competitive. But, most importantly you can start building lighter gliders that will explode if they crash once.

The most important thing is to understand your gliders and how they glide and transition. put it them in the air 100s of times and compete as much as you can. Even if it's against your own teammates once a week. You want to look at your glider and know immediately how to improve it's flight.

[erikb]

....All teams were not afforded equal opportunity. ....

Hello. As the ELG event supervisor, I wanted to offer our perspective.

Things we can control:
-Air / Blowers
We requested the gym A/C to be turned off at 6am.
This was miscommunicated somehow within WSU and it took them until 8am to get it taken care of.
-Time / team
Because we had 10 teams / hour x 6 minutes each, no time was left during the competition to allow practice flights in the small area we were given.
We could not change the schedule since it was published and already communicated to all teams.

Things we cannot control:
-Access to the gym- WSU has a strict policy of making sure it's students receive the benefits they pay for. Exclusive access to the gym during the week, the gym is one of those benefits.
-Air density, we have no control over where you trimmed your gliders or other machines. I would expect teams could also claim the humidity level changes and affects their gliders and boomilevers but again, we cannot control the weather in your home state. Obviously one option would be to change the event to a build on-site to make it equal. This would benefit those teams who don't practice and hurt those that do (not something I favor).
-Your individual glider design- Yes, heavier gliders handle drafts better. Everyone received 2 hours with the air on and 15 minutes with it off. How you use the time is up to you.

We tried to run the contest and be fair and equal to all teams for the things within our control. I'm sorry you feel your team was treated otherwise

I think i was mis-understood. I understand that not all things are under the control of the event supervisors. And i do see that they tried everything they could to make it fair.

If the air had been turned off on the morning as requested. Then i believe it would have been a fair event. I do.

I honestly believe that no one intentionally left the air on. I honestly believe that the event staff did everything they could to get it shut off.

As far as the air density. That is part of the event. You have to overcome that to compete. As i see it if you want home team advantage then get your state to host it. In no way am i saying that it is unfair that the air changes density, temp or humidity. I am in no way making an argument that needs to be controlled.

My point is this. Because the kids were not given equal opportunity to overcome the differences, this time and only this at this event, it was not a fair event. While we did overcome. Many did not.

In no way am i saying that the event staff was intentionally giving a bonus to the home teams. my comments were directed 100% to chalker's comment that this was a fair event this time. and i felt that was another blow to the kids where denied the opportunity to compete fairly.

And i have done a horrible job of expressing what i mean to say.

[erikb]

I will try one more time, then i suggest we drop it completely. As i have no way to express what i am trying to say in a manner that would be understood. If it is not now.

In no way was i suggesting that the event staff did anything but try to make a fair event. I believe they did everything they could.

In no way am i saying that air density changes or humidity changes are unfair.

What i am saying is, that in this case and only this case. And because of the exact events that took place the event was not an equal opportunity to all participants. Not everyone got the same chance to overcome the obstacles.

I only mentioned the events, air density etc... so my response to chalker was one of trying to get him/her to understand what happened and why in this case and only in this case, it was not fair. Not a response of "your knuckle dragging, mouth breathing idiot" as is many times the response on these sorts of boards.

I did mention the air density etc.. not because i want someone to do something about them but only to explain why it was an obstacle.

My entire point was to try to get chalker to see why it was not a fair event for everyone, this time and only this time. And, for the future i want the the event planners to be aware that gliders and wright stuff have to have a place locally for the kids to prepare. With enough time that it is fair.

i know the staff tried this time. I saw them dealing with tons of upset coaches and kids that morning. I know, in no way, did they intentionally try to hurt those children.

I am truly sorry, if in anyway the event staff feels i place blame on them. I don't.

It was one of those things that was out of their control. And all i was trying to do was show chalker that in this case it was unfair to all participants.

[sr243]

I understand what erikb is saying from a competitor's point of view. When I do building events, I am not just looking for a "even playing field", I am looking for a way to show my best. I want to show off my work because I spent so much time into it. Medals are bonuses but I really want to do my best. I rather do my best and not win a medal if others are better than win a medal because everyone could not do their best.

I understand problems arise. Certain factors like humidity and temperature are expected and nonadjustable(though we can minimize the effects ourselves) but when it is something (a human error) that could have been prevented, it hurts us competitors. We are the ones that suffer the losses. We come out wondering if we should continue putting in our best efforts or will it be wasted.

If science olympiad is just for fun or practice, then rules and competition can be lenient as they are in invitationals or regionals. However, when it is states or nationals where every event and place matters, it is expected that we do our best as competitors and coordinators and supervisors will do their best to facilitate the experience. When competitors are held to such strict rules and expected to do their best, the people preparing the competition should also have such careful attention to detail and do their best. When we don't see the coordinators and supervisors (or the host) putting in the time and effort, we are upset that we spent hours working and it is trivialized because of someone's negligence. I am not directing this in particular to any instance but in general though I do have specific examples.

[plaid suit guy2]

ok. I happen to know for a fact that there was not a fair playing field for gliders. The two hours in the morning were spent entirely standing around waiting after the fans blew my #1 glider into a vent, resulting in irreversible damage to the glider. The #3 glider was warped by the humidity, which caused a wing to crack, and the tail of the #2 glider was slightly altered. I made the decision not to fly in the gym due to these conditions and the likelihood of another break. Meaning that I had to hope to be able to trim glider #2 during the "Lunch Break" immediately before my time slot. In the meantime, the local schools didn't have any need to worry about the air because they had absolutely no change in humidity or air density to deal with, they just had to trim to height, which takes significantly less time than trimming for the air.

[mrsteven]

Again, this is NOT the correct venue for this conversation (if there even is one). This is a robot arm discussion thread, as such, lets keep it to just robot arm topics.
Some of us would really enjoy a nice robot arm conversation, not upset ramblings of accidental issues with other events. Many of us understand frustrations, including the supervisors, but this topic is no longer appropriate.

Thank you