Robot Arm C

[JBoyd-NY]

FAQs can't be used as rules clarifications, but they can be used for informational purposes ahead of time.

Also, on the official soinc website, the FAQ mentions nothing about the base.

03/02/2012 - 15:36 Are there any penalties if any part of your device falls off into the competition area or becomes detached from the device during competition.

There are no penalties but timing stops when any part of the arm falls off or becomes detached from the arm.

I still don't see what rule this FAQ is based upon, other than 6.c.vii. there is no rule in the Official Rule Manual that states that parts of the robot arm cannot become detached. This FAQ states that they cannot, so I'm asking what rule is this FAQ based on? I'm assuming that you cannot make up FAQs that state you cannot do something when there is no rule prohibiting it.

[OldSpice]

FAQs can't be used as rules clarifications, but they can be used for informational purposes ahead of time.

Also, on the official soinc website, the FAQ mentions nothing about the base.

03/02/2012 - 15:36 Are there any penalties if any part of your device falls off into the competition area or becomes detached from the device during competition.

There are no penalties but timing stops when any part of the arm falls off or becomes detached from the arm.

So does this mean that there is no way for a team to detach a permanent magnet from the arm to drop the nails into the bin without the official calling time?

[JBoyd-NY]

Check your State clarification page for how your State will handle it

[harryk]

OK, I'm confused. Hopefully, someone can offer me an explanation that clarifies things for me.

There is a FAQ that states that if any part of the robot becomes detached from the rest of the robot, time will be called. I believe that this FAQ is based on rule 6.c.vii, which states that time will stop when "The Arm(s) become detached from the optional Base". I'm making that assumption because 6.c lists 7 reasons for calling Time, and the only one that refers to parts of the arm becoming detached is 6.c.vii.

Here's the hypothetical scenario that has me confused:

I build a robot arm that does not use an optional base. At the start of the competition, I use a permanent magnet that is held by the claw at the end of the arm to pick up 4 nails. I raise the arm after securing the 4th nail and move the claw so it is over the North goal box. I then open the claw, releasing the magnet and the 4 nails into the North goal box. The event supervisor calls Time and informs me that I receive no points for the nails, and the only points I get are the 12 points for all three Goal Boxes remaining upright. I ask the event supervisor which rule he is enforcing when he calls Time and he states that he is enforcing 6.c.vii. When I point out that I have no Base, that the Base is optional and is therefore not required, and that 6.c.vii cannot apply to my robot arm since my arm cannot possibly become detached from a part of the device that does not exist, and that 6.c.vii applies only to robot arms with optional Bases, he then tells me he is going by the FAQ that says time stops when any part of the arm becomes detached from the rest of the arm.

I was under the impression that FAQs answered questions about the rules, but they could not, in fact, become additional rules. It appears to me that this particular FAQ is an additional rule, added to those included in the official Rules Manual, since it implies that robot arms that do not have optional Bases cannot detach parts when there is no rule in the rule book that speaks about parts of the arm becoming detached except for 6.c.vii, and that rule only applies to robots with optional Bases, much like rule 3f only applies to arms that are controlled via radio frequency. If 6.c.vii was meant to apply to arms with and without optional Bases, then why mention the Base at all? Why not simply state that time will be called when "any part of the robot arm(s) become detached from the rest of the robot arm"?

Interesting point, I always thought that rule sounded odd

Though I don't see how you can have an arm without a base, not necessarily a large board of wood, but whatever is between the arm and the ground, in order to not have a base it would have to be floating

But yeah, I think this could be in need of a real clarification because the FAQ regarding magnets/pieces detaching from the arm does not have anything to do with any current rule

[chalker7]

FAQs can't be used as rules clarifications, but they can be used for informational purposes ahead of time.

Also, on the official soinc website, the FAQ mentions nothing about the base.

03/02/2012 - 15:36 Are there any penalties if any part of your device falls off into the competition area or becomes detached from the device during competition.

There are no penalties but timing stops when any part of the arm falls off or becomes detached from the arm.

I still don't see what rule this FAQ is based upon, other than 6.c.vii. there is no rule in the Official Rule Manual that states that parts of the robot arm cannot become detached. This FAQ states that they cannot, so I'm asking what rule is this FAQ based on? I'm assuming that you cannot make up FAQs that state you cannot do something when there is no rule prohibiting it.

The FAQ doesn't say anything about a penalty or the components not being allowed to detach from the arm, it simply explains a scenario in which rule 6.c.vii may be relevant.

I am curious about the earlier scenario you proposed. Can you describe a design that does not include the optional base? If a situation like you said came up, I could see the team saying their anchoring device is not a "base," while the supervisor says it is a base and a potentially difficult arbitration arising.
EDIT- Basically, I'm curious what is the difference between the "arm" and the "base." What would the magnet(s) count as?

[JBoyd-NY]

I was proposing a hypothetical. If it's impossible to design a robot arm without having it attached to a base, then why do the rules refer to the base as optional?

And I disagree that calling Time before you have completed the tasks is not a penalty, especially if the items that are held by the part of the arm that is being detached are not counted - you lose those points and the chance to put any other items in the goal boxes, and I would certainly call that a penalty.

[wlsguy]

And.... to make things even more confusing....
just thinking....

What if my permanent magnets were tethered to the arm (not the base) around the shoulder joint by strings. I would call them little "arms" on my documentation to prevent them from being part of the base.

When I drop them they are:

A) still attached
B) allowed to touch both the surface of the field, the objects, and the containers.

I think this would be legal but would likely be declared in "violation of the Spirit of Competition".
But this would be incorrect because the whole idea of disallowing permanent magnets is wrong because "2.Unless otherwise stated, it is generally understood that if writing utensils, notes, resources, calculators, actions, etc., are not excluded, then they are permitted unless they violate the spirit of the problem". The problem in this case is to build a robot arm that moves objects into containers.

[eta150]

And.... to make things even more confusing....
just thinking....

What if my permanent magnets were tethered to the arm (not the base) around the shoulder joint by strings. I would call them little "arms" on my documentation to prevent them from being part of the base.

When I drop them they are:

A) still attached
B) allowed to touch both the surface of the field, the objects, and the containers.

I think this would be legal but would likely be declared in "violation of the Spirit of Competition".
But this would be incorrect because the whole idea of disallowing permanent magnets is wrong because "2.Unless otherwise stated, it is generally understood that if writing utensils, notes, resources, calculators, actions, etc., are not excluded, then they are permitted unless they violate the spirit of the problem". The problem in this case is to build a robot arm that moves objects into containers.

This isn't absolutely certain (although I know someone will likely be able to confirm), but because of this issue arising at our regional competition, the national event supervisor was called, and he said that it would be considered a spirit of the rules violation, and that time would be stopped if the string touched the ground (don't ask why, I don't get it either).

[wlsguy]

ahh the old "Spirit of the Problem" violation.
It seems like this the the "easy out" whenever someone comes up with a good idea.

It just conflicts with the General Rule #2 and it's hard to figure out in advance when you will be DQ'd

[illusionist]

So the final result is that you cannot release a permanent magnet in order to score points? This seems like it really restricts the design posibilities. And another twist, based on my previously stated scenario where the arm with magnet still attached places the nails inside a goal box, so that they touch the base of the goal box, then releases the magnet while still inside the goal box. At the same instant when the magnet is released, the nails are supported fully by the goal box. The nails don't drop in after the magnet is released, but rather at the exact same time (for all practical purposes).