Robot Arm C

[Jdogg]

I am thoroughly confused with how you can score a point moving something into the north zone that does not stay in the north zone when it says clearly in the rules that those points are scored at the end of the run (7.e). I can see if the object is moved into the north zone and stays there that it could be counted but merely holding an object over the north zone and then place in one of the goal boxes later by the regular arm I don't see. Maybe someone on the rules committee could help me out because my team has proposed several ways to do just that and I tell them to come up with another, which they have. They made a whole second arm that legitimately places an object into one of the goal boxes before it takes hold of the final ping pong ball and raises it up. This I believe is in the spirit of the rules. Am I missing something here?

If points are scored at the end of the run, how are any points scored for the height task for any team?
Thus you have to assume points are talled at the end and points are scored during the run. Even if a team scores a point by moving it into the north zone then moving it into a goal box, you have put the object into a scoring position where it has scored a point then your adding more points to your run then your scoring points by putting it into one of the goal boxes.
That's just my interpretation though. Hope that helps.

[Pyrotechnic-Robot]

I was the student who designed and constructed the questioned robotic arm along with my partner above. you can see better images and videos in the link below.
https://plus.google.com/u/0/photos/1146 ... 8794163025

[mrsteven]

I was the student who designed and constructed the questioned robotic arm along with my partner above. you can see better images and videos in the link below.
https://plus.google.com/u/0/photos/1146 ... 8794163025

Corporate sponsorship Im guessing? Thats alot of expensive gear you have going on there, and a fair number of CNC parts and 3d printed parts if I see correctly. Very cool man. Serious props for the organization on your base. I know how much a pain it is with my battle bots to keep internal electrical systems looking clean.

the upward/downward motion with the dual rods, why did you choose to do that versus other alternatives? Or even the crane type design. First one Ive seen personally that did anything more than flail around. I'm impressed with alot of the inginuity in the design

And... I have to ask, do you have a photography studio in your basement or something?

[harryk]

I was the student who designed and constructed the questioned robotic arm along with my partner above. you can see better images and videos in the link below.
https://plus.google.com/u/0/photos/1146 ... 8794163025

Wow! That is truly some nice designing and construction. It looked like you guys using a master-slave system, correct?

[erikb]

I have a clarification affirming that scoring a point does not explicitly mean that it has to be in the same scorable position at the end. It still scores a point

And the air space over the north zone is still the north zone

Yes, i believe that is correct but another clarification states:
04/11/2013 - 21:29 Can an end effector pick up a ping pong ball,that will be used for the final task,early in the run and place it in a holding position, (a cup or cradle) on the base of their robot?
<snip> boring stuff</snip>However, in order for both the bonus and all other points to count, a distinct raising action must begin with the ball at the same elevation as it started the run at (ie, touching the ground). <snip> the rest of the boring stuff</snip>

So if we put all the faqs together. The ball must be touching the ground and then raised for the bonus points. One may move the ping pong, hold it in something or place it in the north zone. But it must be touching the ground when the "separate, distinct, and FINAL action" begins.

Both the plastic bag trick and the very awesome robot arm failed to do so. The ball was not "touching the ground". In both cases the ping pong was scored. Then lifted without touching the ground. That is not a separate action but the same action carried through. Neither should score the bonus. As stated by the faq clarifications.

As it sits the rules committee has created a quagmire of points values. But, from the clarifications there is only two possible ways to score the points.

1. An arm with a single task of bonus points, moves the ping pong ball to the north. Sets down the ping pong ball (until it is "touching the ground"), then raises it from the ground as the final action.
2. An arm that has scored at least one other point from placing other item picks up the ball from it's starting position (or somewhere else as long as it is on the ground) to score the bonus points.

In summery, from the faq and rules waiving the ball over the north goal and moving it up to the bonus is not a separate and final action, it is the same action carried through. The bonuses should not be counted.

Finally, since it is a "separate, distinct, and FINAL action" then moving the ball to the north goal should also count (since by the rules one point must be scored by the arm). Plus the bonus.

[mrsteven]

It was a 'distinct and final action'.
I didnt move the ping pong ball until all other objects were already in their respective goal boxes. Then the last ball was moved to the bag and used.
Everyone in the room seemed to think that it was acceptable, as well as the states who I know have had competitors have similar solutions with moving the arm to get the ball and place into a apparatus to do the heavy lifting. Therefore I think the majority of people find it a distinct action.

[erikb]

<snip>Then the last ball was moved to the bag and used.</snip>

That is my point. It is not a distinct action from the scoring of the single point with the ping pong ball. It is a continuation of that score. Thus it was not the final action but a continuation of moving the ping pong ball to the north zone.

To be distinct it must have different beginning, middle and end. In this case they both start in the same place and one continues. Thus, it is not distinct but a continuation.

You're argument is: that a pitchers pitch should be named different things by where it lands and not by the mechanics used to throw the ball.

The bonus was not a distinct action. It was a continuation of the scoring of the ping pong ball. Next, since it was in a bag it was not touching the ground when the scoring for the bonus began.

However, after more thought on your design and in your specific case, i believe your's cut a sting after it was moved to the north zone. I am not sure but i think that's what i read. So if that's the case it was moved to the north by one mechanism. Then a different (thus distinct) mechanism was used to raise the ping pong ball. If there was a hole in the bottom of the bag so the ball touched the ground then, one could argue that the lifting began in the north zone and met both criteria: distinct action and touching the ground.

If the string was not cut after the ball entered the north zone, a more obscure argument could be made if the bag came to rest in the north zone. And the ball was allowed to touch the ground through a hole and given enough time come to rest. Then it would be starting from the north zone.

My comments were more for the ones that wave the ball over the north zone. With those they fail both clarifications. I did not fully consider your design when i lumped you in with them.

Finally, if you are going to nationals. Touching means touching, not almost touching and not plastic bag between. The national judges take a very literal view of the rules and clarifications. It is black and white at nationals, not tones of gray decisions state and regional judges make.

[chalker]

Finally, if you are going to nationals. Touching means touching, not almost touching and not plastic bag between. The national judges take a very literal view of the rules and clarifications. It is black and white at nationals, not tones of gray decisions state and regional judges make.

I'd like to chime in a bit about this. In general the national event supervisors are the ones that helped write the rules, thus they not only know the letter of the rules very well, but also understand the spirit behind the rules. And while we generally try to avoid 'spirit of the problem' interpretations, note that general rule #1 explicitly speaks to not interpreting the rules so you have an unfair advantage over others (http://www.soinc.org/ethics_rules). It should be obvious to everyone the robot arm rules regarding the bonus ping pong ball were written to avoid extremely specialized 'lifting devices' that have no utility other than to lift a ping pong ball as high as possible. (Note as always, this is not the place for official clarifications or statements, etc etc)

[erikb]

Not sure what to make of that.

[mrsteven]

Not sure what to make of that.

Seems pretty clear to me. However, its not really an unfair interpretation if its a common one within that fringe group that puts the time in to do it, which I assume that group is very present at nationals more than in fringe quantities.
But I agree with Chalker, even talking on this thread at the end of last year, it was discussed explicitly that 'specialized height tasks' weren't the intention. Although I'm definitely a perpetrator of that, I wasn't the only one in Illinois. In these engineering events, its often required to find loop holes to even place since other top teams are as well.

Chalker, what event are you running/helping with this year at nationals? I seem to remember you being a helicopters guy in the past with C, yes?