Junkyard Challenge B

[3slh9]

We had our state tournament yesterday. The judges did not know about the national clarification of 60.99 seconds is considered 60 seconds until we pointed it out to them. When we ran our machine, the timer on our machine said 60.6 seconds, one of our parents who was watching timed it and said 60.6 seconds, the one official timer said 60.6 seconds, the second official timer said 61.7 seconds. They took the average of the two official times which put us over by 0.3 seconds! Because of this, we got 8th place. Had they used the 60.6 second time, we would have been 1st. Then what really sucked is we missed qualifying for nationals by 2 points. So pretty much, because of a slow reaction time on the part of a judge, we lost going to nationals!

[new horizon]

that's terrible! i'm sorry for your loss. =[
honestly this event is so rigged, there should be a more definitive tiebreak... or if they're using time at least use microcontrollers.
I'd suggest to aim lower, if your device is customizable like that. I doubt many teams could have gotten a perfect 60. better to be safe than sorry.
Same with with the div. C mousetrap vehicle, there's a 1000 pt penalty for something, so they most likely gave a little cushion to the vehicle so they don't violate it. getting like 58/9 would've landed you into at least in the top 3, and a spot to go to nats.

[fmtiger124]

Mostly for clarification, zyzzyva said that your unofficial got 60.8 you said 60.6--which is it?

Also, sort of being a devil's advocate but I would assume that every team had the difference split, it is possible that the one judge had a bad reaction time all day, some people are naturally like that so it could have affected all teams and someone else could have beat you regarding something like that. Though 3slh9 I believe you are a coach so you know more than I do.

In all seriousness though it sucks for you I know in middle school, I had the egg break on a scrambler when we didn't even do anything to it--I put a piece of tape on a boom it cracks and that prevented my schools best finish ever (3rd at states aka nats alternate) and it still hurts me so I can imagine your entire teams pain.

[3slh9]

It was 60.6. I was standing next to our unofficial timer during the run. The next closest time to us was 59.8 I believe and I was watching it and they dropped the golf ball on 1 instead of go which is when the guy started the timer. It is what it is but they need to come up with a better way to do this because everyone is going to push the envelope and this is going to keep happening. Anything that counts on human timing needs to have a back up in case of disputes. With technology getting cheaper and cheaper and usually having corporate sponsors running events at state competitions, they should have cameras or something.

Oh well, next year we will be at C division with a whole new set of events!

[new horizon]

did you appeal?

i'm actually interested in how this event will be scored at nationals time wise, they should use something much more accurate than stop watches. Or they could impose a new tiebreak system which would be less reliant on the judge's reflexes.

[3slh9]

We didn't appeal because it was considered fair as everybody had the same timers all day long and everyone had the same disadvantage (supposedly). We also didn't want to push it and risk a disqualification. And let's just say, it isn't smart to appeal in our state. The best we could do was we had every kid on our team fill out those survey sheets and complain about the timers and that they needed 3 at least for issues like this. This was probably the worst run state tournament in years for multiple reasons and in multiple events.

[mrcadman]

There's going to be at least a dozen 60.99 scores, even if they use an audio device for scoring, which they SHOULD.

Check the video that shows how the electronic timing is done.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LmU-_o_-uOE

Basically it places the timing variance in each team's ability to drop the ball at the start of the "go" noise.
It does, however, insure that teams willbe very unlikely to receive the same time (because it is measured to .001 seconds).

Just one more reason for the judges to use some form of accurate timing for a miro-timed event. As wlsguy previously pointed out, they could/SHOULD at the very least use an audio timer that is free, reasonably accurate, absolutely fair, and can be learned in minutes.

It's unfortunate that 3slh9's event tanked because of a 1.1 second time spread. That's a huge difference between timers. You'll know if they are even taking this event seriously at Nats if they use some form of accurate timing.

[brobo]

When did the goal of this event turn away from the creation of devices to having the most acurate timing device? Sure, it can be important to have the timers as acurate as posible, but isn't it also important to set off the mousetraps in the correct order? Set off the mousetraps at all? Have the mousetraps the right distance away? Yes, it is unfortunate (and wrong) that that happened, but it sure won't happen at Nats. I said it once and I'll say it again; everyone is making a mountain out of a mole hill when it comes to this problem. Answer me this: has anyone been to a tournament yet where the difference between two places came down to a portion of a second as a tie-breaker?

[mrcadman]

When did the goal of this event turn away from the creation of devices to having the most acurate timing device? Sure, it can be important to have the timers as acurate as posible, but isn't it also important to set off the mousetraps in the correct order? Set off the mousetraps at all? Have the mousetraps the right distance away? Yes, it is unfortunate (and wrong) that that happened, but it sure won't happen at Nats. I said it once and I'll say it again; everyone is making a mountain out of a mole hill when it comes to this problem. Answer me this: has anyone been to a tournament yet where the difference between two places came down to a portion of a second as a tie-breaker?

Well of course tripping, order, and distance are important, but once those issues are worked out, the *only* thing remaining is to address time accuracy. The top teams address each single demand of the rules, line by line, and timing happens to be right in there.

Regardless of State tournament timing comparisons, Nat's is going to be the best of the best. You see here already people with 60+ times, and you can be sure many other teams that don't post have 60+ times a well. Since they made micro time a factor, they should judge it accurately.

That last question is funny. YES. I understand there were a few in the 60+ range at our State competition. I can only imagine what the big-league (top-ten) states have seen.

[fleet130]

Check the video that shows how the electronic timing is done.

Finding a solution that works in a carefully controlled "sterile" environment is not difficult, but the goal must be to find one that will work under all possible conditions. The system discussed in the video is a very good solution, but to sell the idea you need to show how it can be used in an environment with high ambient noise levels and in cases where the mousetrap is released slowly so it doesn't make a distinct "snap".

In my opinion, the problem with the event is not in the timing method, but in the rules placing so much weight on the time and in allowing a simple solution that makes a near-perfect time readily attainable by almost anyone.