Atoning for my Sins as a Test Hoarder

[MIScioly1]

You guys are right, I was impulsive.

If any of yall wanna discuss this, pm me.

Don't feel bad about it. The idea of sharing tests publicly was a good one with good intentions. It's just not what these forums are for.

[EastStroudsburg13]

Just curious, but what kind of backlash can this actually spawn? I feel like it will either A) cause more watermarking or B) cause more publicly released tests, but I don't see why it's detrimental to the community past that.

In the past, we have been asked by schools/directors to remove an individual test that someone found and was upset that it was posted without their permission. Therefore, it is possible that releasing a full set could result in an entire school, and possibly state, organization to be less than pleased with us. That would be an issue that would be discussed beforehand, using the resources of the various coaches we have on here, to ensure that we're taking the best possible course of action that would result in the least people being upset with us.

Just curious, but what kind of backlash can this actually spawn? I feel like it will either A) cause more watermarking or B) cause more publicly released tests, but I don't see why it's detrimental to the community past that.

I think it is good that the tests are being released publicly. I'm not sure doing so in a forums thread was the right way to go about doing so, particularly when several people who run invitationals are members of the community as well.

I think perhaps it would be a good idea to have a talk with East about the best ways to go about sharing these tests.

From the perspective of someone who has helped run a tournament, I personally have no problem with it, but I am an advocate for releasing all tests publicly. I don't know how a tournament director from, say, MIT would feel about it.

The talk does not have to be with me specifically; however, having any sort of talk is helpful. Again, we are in the unique position of having coaches and national committee members here as resources. We can use the input from those resources to help us decide what is the best way to advance the general goals of the community.

[syo_astro]

Just curious, but what kind of backlash can this actually spawn? I feel like it will either A) cause more watermarking or B) cause more publicly released tests, but I don't see why it's detrimental to the community past that.

In the past, we have been asked by schools/directors to remove an individual test that someone found and was upset that it was posted without their permission. Therefore, it is possible that releasing a full set could result in an entire school, and possibly state, organization to be less than pleased with us. That would be an issue that would be discussed beforehand, using the resources of the various coaches we have on here, to ensure that we're taking the best possible course of action that would result in the least people being upset with us.

Won't reply to most of this as I think east explained effectively most of my views.

One addition to this last point by East. When I was deciding to release tests for UMSO, I saw the MI State director, and she immediately advised me against it. She said that at the minimum I should check with test writers and get explicit permission to release online. This was simple enough for most events (except a few that just wouldn't reply-_-)...but it is clear that some members of the community are against public release.

But I don't mean to pick on anyone. I explained my side (about test trading, other aspects of invites that are important, even how we run SSSS here and lots can write tests). After that, the director admitted to not completely knowing this side of the story, but I also didn't know the director's side (which she sorta explained, but I didn't get to note all of it). I know her well, and she's definitely a fan of listening to more people than less:), though not everyone carries such open ears.

While it may not sound like a big deal for coaches / states / nats to get mad at a website, it is a pretty great system to be able to share information between all levels of the organization on a single website (which I don't imagine happening anywhere else). So yeah, option C+ of limiting or cutting off the support on this website...is a thing. Now things probably won't get that extreme, but if this seems like nonsense/too much to read just refer to what East said >.>.

[WhatScience?]

I understand what you guys are trying to say. Honestly speaking, this website is one of the more amazing things that I have seen on the internet, resulting in a level of communication and sharing that I find unimaginable. However, I will always remain on of the biggest proponents of test trading (of course along with the legendary Random Human).

At my last count, there are 80 Division C invites and a smaller (but still significant) number of B invites. To put things into perspective, I have at least 79, maybe even all 80, of the C invites. I also have somewhere in between 30-50 B invites. On this thread we have released what?, 15 sets maybe. Being honest, that is probably close to 10% of the tests available. That's not something that I feel will destabilize much. Furthermore, all of the tests released in this thread were commonly traded invites. I imagine that most people who put even a little time into trading would have been able to obtain these tests.

To put some more context into trading, the discord server has been often called the shady scioly discord by the teammates of some of our members. While I believe this to be a slight hyperbole, it's not as big of one as some people think. Most (active) people on that server have MIT. The people who have been there for greater than one month and choose to partake in trading (and come online almost everyday), well most of them have >50 sets. #trading, was for months the best place to trade, In the trading season (from when tryouts/invites start to I'd say early February), you can come in with 1 test and within 24 hours, end up in 10 (if someone has told you the best ways to trade; those interested, feel free to pm).

Let me bring to light a phenomenon discovered on the server. Now, trading on the server has become much harder than before. Why? Because everyone has everything that you have. However , trading still exists among people who don't have as much so that they bolster each other. Test trading is bigger than most users on this site can imagine. And for the first time, its easily accessible. Say you are a non-nats team that wants to improve their performance at states. Then, you can trade your notes to one of the trading titans, (myself, random, theschisis, and now somewhat road and imaginations) to get tests. We have reached a point where anyone can trade if they have activity and incentive. Furthermore, multiple new members have joined the server and asked me for advice on how to trade. This is a thing that few people value but most need. How to trade. Sure you can trade one test for one test (set). But that isn't going to cut it.

I am ranting now but what I am trying to illustrate is that trading is too big and too public to stop. I can hands down guarantee that there are at least double (if not much more) the amount of teams that have >30 sets this season as opposed to last season. You can't stop trading. It's impossible. But the thing is, with this much trading, things are going to be publicly released at some point. People have talked about releasing a 50 set folder to the public. Naturally this hasn't happened yet, but believe me, within the next 2 years, something big is going to happen.

We are at a turning point in the Science Olympiad community. I speak not of this site, or reddit, or discord, but of the community as a whole. Everywhere, changes are happening. At the beginning of this season, Random and I were basically slaughtered for suggesting trading. Now, while it is still somewhat taboo on this site, it's common. Over the next 2 years, this community is going to completely change. We are going to change the way we study, interact, trade, share, and release. Everyone needs to decide which way they want to go.

A movement is happening. We need to either support change in some way, or we will all fall behind.

Public releases may become more common by invites, but I highly doubt that this will become too mainstream (even though it would be great).

However Watermarking is not the answer

To share something with the community. People are willing to trade just about anything for the watermarked tests just because they are watermarked. While not often spoken about, people know exactly who has the tests. This makes watermarked tests some of the most traded

I don't know exactly how we are going to proceed, but I wanted to share this information with the wider community. People need to understand all of this before they move forward

I wish everyone luck in their season. If you have any question about anything I have said, either reply or pm.

[EastStroudsburg13]

I think this is a great place to start the discussion. As you said, trading has grown immensely and it's not going to stop. The fact that we have these large communities gives us the ability to promote change in a way that may have been impossible otherwise.

I heard a proposition from a user that I shall leave anonymous for the time being (they can step forward to take credit if they wish). The idea is that tournaments would release at least a "sampler pack" of their tests, about 5-10 or so, to be publicly posted on their website, soinc.org, or here somewhere. This would accomplish a few things:

• increase the number of tests publicly in circulation
• not force tournaments to release all tests immediately, if there are still some reservations
• give teams a taste for what the tournament can offer in future years, potentially increasing the tournament's profile
• still provide value to teams who partly go to tournaments for the tests themselves
• still give tournaments an element of choice for where their tests go

Tournaments could still be encouraged to release full sets, if they wanted, but this way they can still choose if they have some tests they don't want to post publicly, they can choose how many tests to publish (within a range), and they have the liberty to choose where and when they are published. In the worst case, this becomes the status quo (already an improvement) and in the best case, this serves as a transition to tournaments and teams being more comfortable with releasing full tests.

As for current test sets, I'm not opposed to having some form of central Test Bank of test sets where the tournaments did not upload them themselves; that way, we can put a disclaimer of some sort letting tournaments know that the links have been provided by students, and to contact us if they wish to have a link taken down. We could also put a readme file of sorts on the top detailing the motivations behind such a Test Bank and what we would like to see accomplished by it. I'd still like to defer to bernard and any current coaches or committee members (e.g. chalker) for their input for what coach motivations usually are and how they could feel about this. But I honestly do think it's a nice idea, and if executed in a way that's agreed upon by a majority, could really help fit what a lot of people are looking for.

[Tesel]

Sorry if this seems repetitive, but I'd like to share my thoughts.
The absolute worst case scenario is that tournaments and test writers resist their tests being shared publicly. You say that watermarking is not the answer, but there are more extreme solutions. Tournaments could stop releasing original copies of tests and keys, and just give teams their corrected test. Or, even worse, they could stop releasing tests at all, even to the teams that participated. Both solutions are obviously undesirable for both the teams that participated and for teams that wanted to trade for the test.
I can support East's proposal as it gives tournaments some measure of control. Even if it somewhat limits the amount of individual tests that would be released, I highly doubt that there would be a shortage. I see no possible way to make use of 80 tests in every event - the combined time of studying, taking notes, and taking tests is simply unfeasible. Thus, the proposal would be fair to both students and tournaments.

[1stBroshi]

I understand what you guys are trying to say. Honestly speaking, this website is one of the more amazing things that I have seen on the internet, resulting in a level of communication and sharing that I find unimaginable. However, I will always remain on of the biggest proponents of test trading (of course along with the legendary Random Human).

At my last count, there are 80 Division C invites and a smaller (but still significant) number of B invites. To put things into perspective, I have at least 79, maybe even all 80, of the C invites. I also have somewhere in between 30-50 B invites. On this thread we have released what?, 15 sets maybe. Being honest, that is probably close to 10% of the tests available. That's not something that I feel will destabilize much. Furthermore, all of the tests released in this thread were commonly traded invites. I imagine that most people who put even a little time into trading would have been able to obtain these tests.

To put some more context into trading, the discord server has been often called the shady scioly discord by the teammates of some of our members. While I believe this to be a slight hyperbole, it's not as big of one as some people think. Most (active) people on that server have MIT. The people who have been there for greater than one month and choose to partake in trading (and come online almost everyday), well most of them have >50 sets. #trading, was for months the best place to trade, In the trading season (from when tryouts/invites start to I'd say early February), you can come in with 1 test and within 24 hours, end up in 10 (if someone has told you the best ways to trade; those interested, feel free to pm).

Let me bring to light a phenomenon discovered on the server. Now, trading on the server has become much harder than before. Why? Because everyone has everything that you have. However , trading still exists among people who don't have as much so that they bolster each other. Test trading is bigger than most users on this site can imagine. And for the first time, its easily accessible. Say you are a non-nats team that wants to improve their performance at states. Then, you can trade your notes to one of the trading titans, (myself, random, theschisis, and now somewhat road and imaginations) to get tests. We have reached a point where anyone can trade if they have activity and incentive. Furthermore, multiple new members have joined the server and asked me for advice on how to trade. This is a thing that few people value but most need. How to trade. Sure you can trade one test for one test (set). But that isn't going to cut it.

I am ranting now but what I am trying to illustrate is that trading is too big and too public to stop. I can hands down guarantee that there are at least double (if not much more) the amount of teams that have >30 sets this season as opposed to last season. You can't stop trading. It's impossible. But the thing is, with this much trading, things are going to be publicly released at some point. People have talked about releasing a 50 set folder to the public. Naturally this hasn't happened yet, but believe me, within the next 2 years, something big is going to happen.

We are at a turning point in the Science Olympiad community. I speak not of this site, or reddit, or discord, but of the community as a whole. Everywhere, changes are happening. At the beginning of this season, Random and I were basically slaughtered for suggesting trading. Now, while it is still somewhat taboo on this site, it's common. Over the next 2 years, this community is going to completely change. We are going to change the way we study, interact, trade, share, and release. Everyone needs to decide which way they want to go.

A movement is happening. We need to either support change in some way, or we will all fall behind.

Public releases may become more common by invites, but I highly doubt that this will become too mainstream (even though it would be great).

However Watermarking is not the answer

To share something with the community. People are willing to trade just about anything for the watermarked tests just because they are watermarked. While not often spoken about, people know exactly who has the tests. This makes watermarked tests some of the most traded

I don't know exactly how we are going to proceed, but I wanted to share this information with the wider community. People need to understand all of this before they move forward

I wish everyone luck in their season. If you have any question about anything I have said, either reply or pm.

hypocrite.

[NeBH]

This: (Click to Show Hidden Text)

I understand what you guys are trying to say. Honestly speaking, this website is one of the more amazing things that I have seen on the internet, resulting in a level of communication and sharing that I find unimaginable. However, I will always remain on of the biggest proponents of test trading (of course along with the legendary Random Human).

At my last count, there are 80 Division C invites and a smaller (but still significant) number of B invites. To put things into perspective, I have at least 79, maybe even all 80, of the C invites. I also have somewhere in between 30-50 B invites. On this thread we have released what?, 15 sets maybe. Being honest, that is probably close to 10% of the tests available. That's not something that I feel will destabilize much. Furthermore, all of the tests released in this thread were commonly traded invites. I imagine that most people who put even a little time into trading would have been able to obtain these tests. 

To put some more context into trading, the discord server has been often called the shady scioly discord by the teammates of some of our members. While I believe this to be a slight hyperbole, it's not as big of one as some people think. Most (active) people on that server have MIT. The people who have been there for greater than one month and choose to partake in trading (and come online almost everyday), well most of them have >50 sets. #trading, was for months the best place to trade, In the trading season (from when tryouts/invites start to I'd say early February), you can come in with 1 test and within 24 hours, end up in 10 (if someone has told you the best ways to trade; those interested, feel free to pm). 

Let me bring to light a phenomenon discovered on the server. Now, trading on the server has become much harder than before. Why? Because everyone has everything that you have. However , trading still exists among people who don't have as much so that they bolster each other. Test trading is bigger than most users on this site can imagine. And for the first time, its easily accessible. Say you are a non-nats team that wants to improve their performance at states. Then, you can trade your notes to one of the trading titans, (myself, random, theschisis, and now somewhat road and imaginations) to get tests. We have reached a point where anyone can trade if they have activity and incentive. Furthermore, multiple new members have joined the server and asked me for advice on how to trade. This is a thing that few people value but most need. How to trade. Sure you can trade one test for one test (set). But that isn't going to cut it. 

I am ranting now but what I am trying to illustrate is that trading is too big and too public to stop. I can hands down guarantee that there are at least double (if not much more) the amount of teams that have >30 sets this season as opposed to last season. You can't stop trading. It's impossible. But the thing is, with this much trading, things are going to be publicly released at some point. People have talked about releasing a 50 set folder to the public. Naturally this hasn't happened yet, but believe me, within the next 2 years, something big is going to happen.

We are at a turning point in the Science Olympiad community. I speak not of this site, or reddit, or discord, but of the community as a whole. Everywhere, changes are happening. At the beginning of this season, Random and I were basically slaughtered for suggesting trading. Now, while it is still somewhat taboo on this site, it's common. Over the next 2 years, this community is going to completely change. We are going to change the way we study, interact, trade, share, and release. Everyone needs to decide which way they want to go. 

[b][u]A movement is happening. We need to either support change in some way, or we will all fall behind. [/u][/b]

Public releases may become more common by invites, but I highly doubt that this will become too mainstream (even though it would be great).

However [b][u]Watermarking is not the answer[/b][/u]

To share something with the community. People are willing to trade just about anything for the watermarked tests just because they are watermarked. While not often spoken about, people know exactly who has the tests. [b][u]This makes watermarked tests some of the most traded [/u][/b]

I don't know exactly how we are going to proceed, but I wanted to share this information with the wider community. [b][u] People need to understand all of this before they move forward[/b][/u]

I wish everyone luck in their season. If you have any question about anything I have said, either reply or pm.

hypocrite.

What do you mean, "hypocrite"? Would you please elaborate on that?

[WhatScience?]

East's idea makes a lot of sense. If discussion is needed right now, then that is what we should have.

And I do NOT support us releasing every single test that is run. This would destabilize too much. That said, maybe releasing somewhere from 15-20 sets per division per year is an option.

Edit: And to the person that called me a hypocrite, why? I'll be honest, my exact stance has changed a bit throughout this season but I don't think I am being hypocritical.

[daydreamer0023]

This: (Click to Show Hidden Text)

I understand what you guys are trying to say. Honestly speaking, this website is one of the more amazing things that I have seen on the internet, resulting in a level of communication and sharing that I find unimaginable. However, I will always remain on of the biggest proponents of test trading (of course along with the legendary Random Human).

At my last count, there are 80 Division C invites and a smaller (but still significant) number of B invites. To put things into perspective, I have at least 79, maybe even all 80, of the C invites. I also have somewhere in between 30-50 B invites. On this thread we have released what?, 15 sets maybe. Being honest, that is probably close to 10% of the tests available. That's not something that I feel will destabilize much. Furthermore, all of the tests released in this thread were commonly traded invites. I imagine that most people who put even a little time into trading would have been able to obtain these tests. 

To put some more context into trading, the discord server has been often called the shady scioly discord by the teammates of some of our members. While I believe this to be a slight hyperbole, it's not as big of one as some people think. Most (active) people on that server have MIT. The people who have been there for greater than one month and choose to partake in trading (and come online almost everyday), well most of them have >50 sets. #trading, was for months the best place to trade, In the trading season (from when tryouts/invites start to I'd say early February), you can come in with 1 test and within 24 hours, end up in 10 (if someone has told you the best ways to trade; those interested, feel free to pm). 

Let me bring to light a phenomenon discovered on the server. Now, trading on the server has become much harder than before. Why? Because everyone has everything that you have. However , trading still exists among people who don't have as much so that they bolster each other. Test trading is bigger than most users on this site can imagine. And for the first time, its easily accessible. Say you are a non-nats team that wants to improve their performance at states. Then, you can trade your notes to one of the trading titans, (myself, random, theschisis, and now somewhat road and imaginations) to get tests. We have reached a point where anyone can trade if they have activity and incentive. Furthermore, multiple new members have joined the server and asked me for advice on how to trade. This is a thing that few people value but most need. How to trade. Sure you can trade one test for one test (set). But that isn't going to cut it. 

I am ranting now but what I am trying to illustrate is that trading is too big and too public to stop. I can hands down guarantee that there are at least double (if not much more) the amount of teams that have >30 sets this season as opposed to last season. You can't stop trading. It's impossible. But the thing is, with this much trading, things are going to be publicly released at some point. People have talked about releasing a 50 set folder to the public. Naturally this hasn't happened yet, but believe me, within the next 2 years, something big is going to happen.

We are at a turning point in the Science Olympiad community. I speak not of this site, or reddit, or discord, but of the community as a whole. Everywhere, changes are happening. At the beginning of this season, Random and I were basically slaughtered for suggesting trading. Now, while it is still somewhat taboo on this site, it's common. Over the next 2 years, this community is going to completely change. We are going to change the way we study, interact, trade, share, and release. Everyone needs to decide which way they want to go. 

[b][u]A movement is happening. We need to either support change in some way, or we will all fall behind. [/u][/b]

Public releases may become more common by invites, but I highly doubt that this will become too mainstream (even though it would be great).

However [b][u]Watermarking is not the answer[/b][/u]

To share something with the community. People are willing to trade just about anything for the watermarked tests just because they are watermarked. While not often spoken about, people know exactly who has the tests. [b][u]This makes watermarked tests some of the most traded [/u][/b]

I don't know exactly how we are going to proceed, but I wanted to share this information with the wider community. [b][u] People need to understand all of this before they move forward[/b][/u]

I wish everyone luck in their season. If you have any question about anything I have said, either reply or pm.

hypocrite.

What do you mean, "hypocrite"? Would you please elaborate on that?

1stBroshi, if you don't agree with someone or their stances, that's fine. Just please refrain from one word comments unless you have something constructive to add. Test trading/release has been a subject of much debate and many people have changed places from their original stances after a good amount of discussion.

If anything, my two cents to the discussion is that tournaments could specify a specific date/time 1-2 months after the tournament is held to release the tests to the public (instead of after Nationals). That way, if teams want to use said tests for tryouts or the like, they can maintain security that the test questions are not already shared, and teams who did not go to the said invites, they can still use those questions to prepare for future tournaments after the tests go public 1-2 months later.

Thoughts?