Mission Possible C

[ScottMaurer19]

Hey guys
Question: I’m using my pulley to complete a circuit by having one end of it lift up a metal mass to an uncomplete circuit and having the mass touch the wires. My question is, as long as I use a simple D-Cell or 9V battery, is this allowed? I’d be using solid core, 18 gauge copper wiring, and only the tips would be a little stripped. However, there would be a period of time where electricity (again, from only a 9v or a D-cell) is passing through one end.

I see no reason why this wouldn't be allowed.

[Flavorflav]

I think he's referring to the sensor being electrical and the reaction taking several minutes (electrical timer). IMO the sensor is static unless the temperature changes and electricity is not causing the delayed time. However, per an FAQ, the reaction does not count as a chemical timer.

It would be tiered, IMO. The only reasonable justification for the FAQ is that having an electrical sensor reading the chemical clock would violate 3.i. This would imply that any sensor active for 10 seconds before the next task begins would be a construction violation. The seems harsh and I really, really wish the FAQ was a little more explicit than a simple "no," but I can't see any other way to interpret it.

Why would it be tiered? The electrical component of the action does not take longer than 10 seconds. The reaction does. Even if you consider the sensor as electrical taking longer than 10 seconds than it would be a 150 point penalty and not a construction violation. This means that the action cannot be considered a chemical timer but I have a hard time seeing how it would be tiered.

There is really no other way to interpret it, IMO. 4.g says "To receive Bonus Points, participants must designate an action, either scorable or non-scorable, taking over 30 seconds that does not use electricity or springs for power." The FAQ says "COULD THE TIMER HAVE AN ELECTRICAL SENSOR ENDING IT?" and the answer was "No." The only justification for that answer which is consistent with the rules that I can see would be that having an electrical sensor ending the task means it is powered by electricity. 3.i says "No electrical or spring timers are allowed. An electrical or spring timer is defined as a scorable or non-scorable action that is powered by electricity or a spring that takes longer than 10 seconds." Therefore, using a sensor to end a clock would violate 3.i. If anyone has another way to interpret the FAQ I'd like to hear it, because I suspect I'm going to be tiering quite a few people this weekend.

[Flavorflav]

I think he's referring to the sensor being electrical and the reaction taking several minutes (electrical timer). IMO the sensor is static unless the temperature changes and electricity is not causing the delayed time. However, per an FAQ, the reaction does not count as a chemical timer.

Thank you, that's what I was asking. The wording in the FAQ is not very clear, but that is how I believed it would be interpreted. I can still use the sensor for the reduction in temperature task?

Yes, you can.

So long as it does not take more than ten seconds, I'd say. If it does, you risk getting tiered.

[ScottMaurer19]

edit below

[ScottMaurer19]

Why would it be tiered? The electrical component of the action does not take longer than 10 seconds. The reaction does. Even if you consider the sensor as electrical taking longer than 10 seconds than it would be a 150 point penalty and not a construction violation. This means that the action cannot be considered a chemical timer but I have a hard time seeing how it would be tiered.

There is really no other way to interpret it, IMO. 4.g says "To receive Bonus Points, participants must designate an action, either scorable or non-scorable, taking over 30 seconds that does not use electricity or springs for power." The FAQ says "COULD THE TIMER HAVE AN ELECTRICAL SENSOR ENDING IT?" and the answer was "No." The only justification for that answer which is consistent with the rules that I can see would be that having an electrical sensor ending the task means it is powered by electricity. 3.i says "No electrical or spring timers are allowed. An electrical or spring timer is defined as a scorable or non-scorable action that is powered by electricity or a spring that takes longer than 10 seconds." Therefore, using a sensor to end a clock would violate 3.i. If anyone has another way to interpret the FAQ I'd like to hear it, because I suspect I'm going to be tiering quite a few people this weekend.

FAQ released 1/1/18: "DOES RULE 3I IMPLY THAT ANY ELECTRICAL DEVICE WHICH OPERATES FOR MORE THAN TEN SECONDS WOULD BE A CONSTRUCTION VIOLATION?

Any type of electrical or spring action that operates for more than 10 seconds and still controls part of the action would be a violation. If a light bulb, fan, etc. remained on but was no longer used or no longer affected the device in any way to contribute to points it could be allowed to stay on without penalty."

In this case you have an chemical action triggering an electrical one. The electrical portion of the action does NOT contribute to the device for more than 10 seconds. Once the threshold is hit, the next action begins. What electrical action is active for more than 10 seconds? None. The only thing delaying the continuation of the next action is the temperature being too warm because the chemical reaction is delaying the start of the next. The FAQ you quoted simply says that a timer that is ended by a sensor does not qualify for bonus points. As you yourself stated, it provides no justification and also does not say that such an action would be considered an electrical timer (which you would expect them to say if they felt that that was the case).

Then there is the fact seeing as there is no justification for it at this point in time, you, as an ES, should do your job to caution the students of your interpretation of the rules but give them the benefit of the doubt until such time as the action is considered explicitly or more clearly illegal (especially at the invitational level).

EDIT: My point is that there is evidence for both interpretations and I feel it is unfair to the students to penalize them to that extreme when it is unclear whether or not they should be penalized. Leniency is a better policy IMO until we are either sure what the rules mean or until regionals/states when it really matters. Please realize that my device does not have such a controversial action as I have built mine to be as far within the rules as possible so I'm simply presenting my interpretation and not defending my device.

[Flavorflav]

Why would it be tiered? The electrical component of the action does not take longer than 10 seconds. The reaction does. Even if you consider the sensor as electrical taking longer than 10 seconds than it would be a 150 point penalty and not a construction violation. This means that the action cannot be considered a chemical timer but I have a hard time seeing how it would be tiered.

There is really no other way to interpret it, IMO. 4.g says "To receive Bonus Points, participants must designate an action, either scorable or non-scorable, taking over 30 seconds that does not use electricity or springs for power." The FAQ says "COULD THE TIMER HAVE AN ELECTRICAL SENSOR ENDING IT?" and the answer was "No." The only justification for that answer which is consistent with the rules that I can see would be that having an electrical sensor ending the task means it is powered by electricity. 3.i says "No electrical or spring timers are allowed. An electrical or spring timer is defined as a scorable or non-scorable action that is powered by electricity or a spring that takes longer than 10 seconds." Therefore, using a sensor to end a clock would violate 3.i. If anyone has another way to interpret the FAQ I'd like to hear it, because I suspect I'm going to be tiering quite a few people this weekend.

FAQ released 1/1/18: "DOES RULE 3I IMPLY THAT ANY ELECTRICAL DEVICE WHICH OPERATES FOR MORE THAN TEN SECONDS WOULD BE A CONSTRUCTION VIOLATION?

Any type of electrical or spring action that operates for more than 10 seconds and still controls part of the action would be a violation. If a light bulb, fan, etc. remained on but was no longer used or no longer affected the device in any way to contribute to points it could be allowed to stay on without penalty."

In this case you have an chemical action triggering an electrical one. The electrical portion of the action does NOT contribute to the device for more than 10 seconds. Once the threshold is hit, the next action begins. What electrical action is active for more than 10 seconds? None. The only thing delaying the continuation of the next action is the temperature being too warm because the chemical reaction is delaying the start of the next. The FAQ you quoted simply says that a timer that is ended by a sensor does not qualify for bonus points. As you yourself stated, it provides no justification and also does not say that such an action would be considered an electrical timer (which you would expect them to say if they felt that that was the case).

Then there is the fact seeing as there is no justification for it at this point in time, you, as an ES, should do your job to caution the students of your interpretation of the rules but give them the benefit of the doubt until such time as the action is considered explicitly or more clearly illegal (especially at the invitational level).

EDIT: My point is that there is evidence for both interpretations and I feel it is unfair to the students to penalize them to that extreme when it is unclear whether or not they should be penalized. Leniency is a better policy IMO until we are either sure what the rules mean or until regionals/states when it really matters. Please realize that my device does not have such a controversial action as I have built mine to be as far within the rules as possible so I'm simply presenting my interpretation and not defending my device.

But that FAQ is not really relevant. The sensor is operating for the entire duration of the clock and is absolutely contributing to points by doing so. The absence of a justification is actually the strongest argument against your position, because the implication is that the issuer of the FAQ believed the reasoning was clear. Since the only possible justification for the FAQ in the printed rules is the "electrical power" clause, one would have to assume that if a different rationale was being used then it would have been specified in the FAQ. The sensor is an integral part of the chemical clock in that the clock does not operate without it, and the sensor element of the clock is powered by electricity for the duration of the action. Why else would it not be allowed in 4.g?

ETA: I just noticed that one part of the FAQ you posted is entirely relevant. "Any type of electrical or spring action that operates for more than 10 seconds and still controls part of the action would be a violation." The sensor is active for more than ten seconds and controls the termination of the action. I really don't see how there is any room for argument here.

[ScottMaurer19]

There is really no other way to interpret it, IMO. 4.g says "To receive Bonus Points, participants must designate an action, either scorable or non-scorable, taking over 30 seconds that does not use electricity or springs for power." The FAQ says "COULD THE TIMER HAVE AN ELECTRICAL SENSOR ENDING IT?" and the answer was "No." The only justification for that answer which is consistent with the rules that I can see would be that having an electrical sensor ending the task means it is powered by electricity. 3.i says "No electrical or spring timers are allowed. An electrical or spring timer is defined as a scorable or non-scorable action that is powered by electricity or a spring that takes longer than 10 seconds." Therefore, using a sensor to end a clock would violate 3.i. If anyone has another way to interpret the FAQ I'd like to hear it, because I suspect I'm going to be tiering quite a few people this weekend.

FAQ released 1/1/18: "DOES RULE 3I IMPLY THAT ANY ELECTRICAL DEVICE WHICH OPERATES FOR MORE THAN TEN SECONDS WOULD BE A CONSTRUCTION VIOLATION?

Any type of electrical or spring action that operates for more than 10 seconds and still controls part of the action would be a violation. If a light bulb, fan, etc. remained on but was no longer used or no longer affected the device in any way to contribute to points it could be allowed to stay on without penalty."

In this case you have an chemical action triggering an electrical one. The electrical portion of the action does NOT contribute to the device for more than 10 seconds. Once the threshold is hit, the next action begins. What electrical action is active for more than 10 seconds? None. The only thing delaying the continuation of the next action is the temperature being too warm because the chemical reaction is delaying the start of the next. The FAQ you quoted simply says that a timer that is ended by a sensor does not qualify for bonus points. As you yourself stated, it provides no justification and also does not say that such an action would be considered an electrical timer (which you would expect them to say if they felt that that was the case).

Then there is the fact seeing as there is no justification for it at this point in time, you, as an ES, should do your job to caution the students of your interpretation of the rules but give them the benefit of the doubt until such time as the action is considered explicitly or more clearly illegal (especially at the invitational level).

EDIT: My point is that there is evidence for both interpretations and I feel it is unfair to the students to penalize them to that extreme when it is unclear whether or not they should be penalized. Leniency is a better policy IMO until we are either sure what the rules mean or until regionals/states when it really matters. Please realize that my device does not have such a controversial action as I have built mine to be as far within the rules as possible so I'm simply presenting my interpretation and not defending my device.

But that FAQ is not really relevant. The sensor is operating for the entire duration of the clock and is absolutely contributing to points by doing so. The absence of a justification is actually the strongest argument against your position, because the implication is that the issuer of the FAQ believed the reasoning was clear. Since the only possible justification for the FAQ in the printed rules is the "electrical power" clause," one would have to assume that if a different rationale was being used then it would have been specified in the FAQ. The sensor is an integral part of the chemical clock in that the clock does not operate without it, and the sensor element of the clock is powered by electricity for the duration of the action. Why else would it not be allowed in 4.g?

Lets pretend there is a switch. And switch is stationary but powered by electricity when completely closed. And something in your device would to slowly push on the switch until it is tripped and the next action begins. This is very very very similar to having a resistor that is slowly changed via temperature until it hits the limit and begins the next action. I agree the action would not receive bonus points as a clock (per 4g + FAQ) but no where does this say it is illegal to have a sensor end a clock. The entire reason spring/electrical timers are not permitted is because the accomplish accurate times too easily. I would therefore argue that negating bonus points by ending a clock using an easy method such as a sensor serves the same purpose; to provide more of a challenge (it can also be seen as more affordable).

If you are arguing the clock could not function without the sensor then clearly it can't operate without the chemicals. The only role that the sensor plays in the clock is to end it and move on once the clock hits a certain point. The actual timing and action iteslf is completed by the reaction correct? Again, what part of this action is powered by electricity and takes longer than 10 seconds? Is there a delay after the sensor is tripped? As far as I know the reaction gets to a temperature, hits a certain resistance in the thermistor, and triggers the next action. Does the sensor need electricity to run? Yes. Does it contribute to the device until the necessary temp. is hit? No.

Note that 4g also states that electricity and springs may not be used to POWER the timing mechanism. The timing is powered by a chemical reaction. (another arbitrary decision)

Again this is how I would explain it to an ES but it's one of those things that is open to interpretation which is one of my biggest issue with the Mission rules this year.

[Flavorflav]

Quotes are getting cumbersome.

Lets pretend there is a switch. And switch is stationary but powered by electricity when completely closed. And something in your device would to slowly push on the switch until it is tripped and the next action begins. This is very very very similar to having a resistor that is slowly changed via temperature until it hits the limit and begins the next action.

No, it isn't. In the first case there is no electrical power until the switch is closed. In the second the electrical power is supplied continuously.

If you are arguing the clock could not function without the sensor then clearly it can't operate without the chemicals.

Of course it can't, but there is no rule against chemicals.

The only role that the sensor plays in the clock is to end it and move on once the clock hits a certain point. The actual timing and action iteslf is completed by the reaction correct? Again, what part of this action is powered by electricity and takes longer than 10 seconds? Is there a delay after the sensor is tripped? As far as I know the reaction gets to a temperature, hits a certain resistance in the thermistor, and triggers the next action. Does the sensor need electricity to run? Yes. Does it contribute to the device until the necessary temp. is hit? No.

Yes. If there were no electricity to the sensor during clock operation, the clock would not function. Look at the clock like a black box - the input is the previous action, and the output is the next action. A chemical reaction that, say, inflates a balloon that hits a mechanical switch is legal - unplug everything and it still works as designed. A chemical clock that requires a sensor as an integral component does not work without electrical power, and therefore is in violation of 3.i.

Note that 4g also states that electricity and springs may not be used to POWER the timing mechanism. The timing is powered by a chemical reaction. (another arbitrary decision)

Again this is how I would explain it to an ES but it's one of those things that is open to interpretation which is one of my biggest issue with the Mission rules this year.

If I'm your ES, the only thing you could say to me to prevent tiering would be to offer another explanation for the FAQ of 11/14 other than that a sensor is powered by electricity. I can't think of one. Can you?

[ScottMaurer19]

No, it isn't. In the first case there is no electrical power until the switch is closed. In the second the electrical power is supplied continuously.

If you are arguing the clock could not function without the sensor then clearly it can't operate without the chemicals.

Of course it can't, but there is no rule against chemicals.

I mean so are the photocells required for one of the other actions... Yet these are legal.

Yes. If there were no electricity to the sensor during clock operation, the clock would not function. Look at the clock like a black box - the input is the previous action, and the output is the next action. A chemical reaction that, say, inflates a balloon that hits a mechanical switch is legal - unplug everything and it still works as designed. A chemical clock that requires a sensor as an integral component does not work without electrical power, and therefore is in violation of 3.i.

The action would still complete. The sensor would still become chilled to the trigger temperature.

If I'm your ES, the only thing you could say to me to prevent tiering would be to offer another explanation for the FAQ of 11/14 other than that a sensor is powered by electricity. I can't think of one. Can you?

As I said above, electrical and spring timers are not permitted because they make it too easy. In this case, a student taking the easy way out and using a sensor to end a timer would not receive the bonus that a competitor that had a different (and arguably harder) method. The action is not powered by electricity but the way it is being measured is. I believe there is a difference between the two.

This is probably just going to be one of those things we are going to have to agree to disagree on because we interpreted differently.

[Flavorflav]

The photocell point is actually a good one, as my logic would seem to bar the use of photoresistors. However, in the case of a photoresistor no electrical power is being used until the resistance drops. This is also true of a thermistor used to measure increasing temperature, which should therefore be legal. It would not be true of a thermistor used to measure decreasing temperature or of any other type of temperature sensor.