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In diana impounds Mission. Always. Hence the "always check".

olympiaddict wrote:Anyone who has been to invitationals, what kind of scores are you seeing there?

I got 4th place at yale with a 723

Thanks! Good job

What experience have people had at invites regarding what constitutes a "container"? We didn't go for sorting at invitationals so I'm not sure.
I'm most wondering, does cutting a hole in the bottom of a container make it dissimilar to the original, and does it make it illegal as a container? I would say it's still a container because for example, berry containers from the grocery store are full of holes but still contain the berries.

olympiaddict wrote:Thanks! Good job

What experience have people had at invites regarding what constitutes a "container"? We didn't go for sorting at invitationals so I'm not sure.
I'm most wondering, does cutting a hole in the bottom of a container make it dissimilar to the original, and does it make it illegal as a container? I would say it's still a container because for example, berry containers from the grocery store are full of holes but still contain the berries.

I'm pretty sure they have to be identical? I'm sure if it's slightly misshapen you should be fine. A hole might be stretching things though.

Uncle Fester wrote:NOBODY claimed batteries as a chem transfer, and the 6 I asked about it gave the same reason: "because the switch doesn't interface with the battery at all. It does with the ELECTRICAL circuit (completing path) though." TWO added something along the lines of "we have something better and claiming a 9-volt battery as chem is just dumb." Apparently pride fits in there somewhere, especially if you won at Nationals before.

I'm really sorry, I don't quite understand how batteries do not count as a chemical transfer. My understanding (which I'll admit is severely limited) is that when a switch completes a circuit, ions in the electrolyte combine with the anode in an oxidation reaction, producing a compound and electrons. Then the cathode goes through a chemical (reduction) reaction with ions and the free electrons from the anode. It is my understanding that this reaction does not occur unless the circuit is completed; in other words, the closing of the switch (mechanically or otherwise) triggers the chemical reaction. It acts as a connection that allows the chemicals to interact. Therefore, I see this as a mechanical (or however the switch is activated) to chemical transfer. Since the chemical reaction provides movement of electrons that can be harnessed as electrical energy (in an actual transformation of energy; I don't think the fact that the electrical energy comes from the chemical energy of the battery can be disputed), this is a chemical to electrical transfer. Am I missing something?

Bro wrote:

Uncle Fester wrote:NOBODY claimed batteries as a chem transfer, and the 6 I asked about it gave the same reason: "because the switch doesn't interface with the battery at all. It does with the ELECTRICAL circuit (completing path) though." TWO added something along the lines of "we have something better and claiming a 9-volt battery as chem is just dumb." Apparently pride fits in there somewhere, especially if you won at Nationals before.

I'm really sorry, I don't quite understand how batteries do not count as a chemical transfer. My understanding (which I'll admit is severely limited) is that when a switch completes a circuit, ions in the electrolyte combine with the anode in an oxidation reaction, producing a compound and electrons. Then the cathode goes through a chemical (reduction) reaction with ions and the free electrons from the anode. It is my understanding that this reaction does not occur unless the circuit is completed; in other words, the closing of the switch (mechanically or otherwise) triggers the chemical reaction. It acts as a connection that allows the chemicals to interact. Therefore, I see this as a mechanical (or however the switch is activated) to chemical transfer. Since the chemical reaction provides movement of electrons that can be harnessed as electrical energy (in an actual transformation of energy; I don't think the fact that the electrical energy comes from the chemical energy of the battery can be disputed), this is a chemical to electrical transfer. Am I missing something?

Black Box Rule?

Bro wrote: It is my understanding that this reaction does not occur unless the circuit is completed; in other words, the closing of the switch (mechanically or otherwise) triggers the chemical reaction.

the chemical reaction in batteries is always happening; that's why you want to always buy the freshest batteries, so the least amount of reacting has occurred. Completing the circuit is not starting the chemical reaction, just giving the separated ions a place to go.

chalker wrote:

Cheese_Muffin_Man wrote:Can someone post a link to the website that Chalker talked about the laser guidelines? Much appreciated!

http://www.soinc.org/lasers

Why does the national power point on slide 46 for mission possible posted on the national website tell us to use a laser pointers if they can't be used? How is turning on a laser pointer with a switch any different then using a computer to turn them on for a timing device is Mag Lev and Scrambler?

Why does the national power point on slide 46 for mission possible posted on the national website tell us to use a laser pointers if they can't be used? How is turning on a laser pointer with a switch any different then using a computer to turn them on for a timing device is Mag Lev and Scrambler?

The powerpoint does start with a disclaimer stating that it's not based on the official rules. However, I don't understand the second example transfer under Chem > EMS.

I'd like to point out that what I posted previously was a report about what other teams had done. I don't have to defend it.

There's a glut of transfers out there, so there's no need to even bother with the iffy ones. That's what everyone did at the invitational I worked-- they played it safe. Winning at Northridge is a very big deal. There are MANY tournaments where ten missed points means no medal or trophy of any kind, and bragging points don't help any.

Remember, you can claim each type of transfer ONCE. At the most, it's 20 points. Then it drops to 10 and finally 5, if other (chem, in this case) transfers occur prior. Post after post after post and no real resolution, all for what's possibly as little as 5 points. Rate of Return is a bit low, don't you think? MOVE ON.

Here's a little secret: EVENT SUPERVISORS TALK. Tenuous arguments may work one weekend, but get debunked by the next. The shortest argument closest to the issue wins the arbitration. I almost always win mine, and my shortest counter-argument was five words. The comment about the switch not interfacing with the chemical process? That's a big one, and it carries a lot of weight.

Some years ago, some coach asked, during a build persentation, if the presenter was withholding techniques, as his team pretty much always won--everything. The coach openly questioned the presenter's sincerity, since sharing secrets could stop their winning streak. The response was a classic: "I have no problem sharing everything I know, because I know nobody's going to be ambitious enough to do it all."

Sorry to say, the prepsenter was 100% right. I run into the same thing over and over. People ask for advice, I give it to them, and it's never seen again. The team at the invitational that won Mission C the last time it was at Nationals? They followed it. Every year. I knew their head coach since he was a rookie, and he REQUIRED them to ask, record, follow. At tht Nationals, they had a 100% reliable Mission with all regular points. Bonus was a released balloon that lifted weight; mass of weight lifted was scored extra. Their only risk was the balloon-- it wasn't even helium. It was air, held under water, and the water pressure shot the balloon up and out of the device with an incredible amount of steel attached. Even with the boundary violation (water), they won by a huge margin. Here's what they did:

1) Entropy is your friend. Fall apart, release, collapse, let go. DON'T lift, mash, combine uinless you have to.
2) No unreliable transfers.
3) Rule compliance is obvious. Absolutely NO grey areas.
4) ANY Missioner must be able to run solo if needed, with no help. Hey, people get sick.
5) Manage and reduce any risk you have. Get the most points at the least risk. (this explains the balloon being their only risk)

Next topic: "How to do Mission of your team has no chance of advancing.