Ongoing Contest(Scores)

[hogger]

With that said, there are some other things that you can do to lighten booms that are blatantly obvious from a visual standpoint that aren't generally thought of

And they can't get that from the hundreds of different pictures and videos of boomilever available on this website and several others?

[iwonder]

I've looked at tons and tons of pictures and videos of booms and yet there are still some things that don't show up.

[hogger]

I've looked at tons and tons of pictures and videos of booms and yet there are still some things that don't show up.

Yet the ones I saw that won it all at national are usually simple design, no special features. All these super secret features that all these teams have seem to be a myth to me, just IMHO.

[dholdgreve]

As I've said before, it is as much about the technique as it is the design... Build techniques won't show up in as picture. The specific density of the compression beams cannot be determined from a picture, even if it taken point blank...yet, i still get frustrated with other team's parents that take pictures of our teams booms, bridges, and towers for the sole purpose of short-cutting their teams R&D. Here in Ohio, it is big time frowned upon, and most E/Cs will absolutely not allow it to happen. I personally have had to take issue as an E/C with one specific team's parents who were taking pictures of other teams booms... I professionally yet firmly explained that this was not acceptable and asked that they stop... I no more than turned around and I heard the shutter clicking again, at which time I whirled around and explained that they had two choices, delete all the pics on the camera, or have me DQ their team from the competition. They were not very happy, but deleted the pic, and put the camera away. I have seen these parents around for several years, and have had issues with them in the past, so I was sure they knew better, and decided to push the envelope anyway...

I don't really care what the National policy is regarding pictures of competitors structures. It is rude and distracting for them to be taking pictures of them when they are testing... If they want pictures of it, ask the competitors prior to testing. If they say no... no means no!

[Balsa Man]

I have to, very respectfully, disagree.
It's purely my personal take, but I base it on a number of things, primarily:
Policy, as discussed above,
The nature of science,
The nature of doing competitive things in a public setting.

People certainly have rights to not be photographed unwillingly, and those rights should be respected.
As long as photos are of the device, and are taken from areas open to the public for viewing, they have every right to do so.
We're not dealing with copyright, intellectual property, corporate espionage, or national security here.
There is, I would argue, a relevent....parallel in racing; a competitive activity, with scientific/engineering elements, open to the public. You can keep other teams from looking under the hood (as long as its closed), touching, crawling under, measuring, but not from watching, and taking pictures; teams learn from each other, and everyone gets better.
An essential element of scientific progress - of learning (which is a key thing S-O is all about!!) - is building on what's known, and then figuring out....next/better steps. Being aware, doing research, looking for new ideas is part of the process.

As has been said many times, seeing (and a photo is only capturing what you can see) only gives you a place to start from- a visual of what's possible. It doesn't "steal" secrets; it doesn't give you a shortcut to the exactly how's that matter.

If the intention was to shield the devices in building events open to the public from "prying eyes", then either they'd be excluded, and one team at a time would reveal to the ES, and test, or they'd test with.....a privacy curtain around them. Both these scenarios are obviously ridiculous, and contrary to what S-O is all about.

If folk want to photo, take it as a complement, and take on the challenge of staying ahead of the pack.

[mrsteven]

I had an issue eariler this year when I took a picture being bombarded by coaches from the team, very hostilely. It they had politely asked me not to/delete them, I would have. But rather it was way more harassive, I still complied, but its insane that adult-coaches can act like such children.

The pictures don't reveal a ton, and even if someone could extrapolate information from it, good. SO is about learning.
I allow anyone to photo graph my devices and more over, if anyone asks about them at competitions, I openly talk to people and answer questions. SO engineering events should be about learning and growing, not CIA security details and hostility

[Balsa Man]

Should come as no surprise I agree, very much, with everything you said.
Understand its much harder for a student than a coach, but I wouldn't have deleted in the circumstances you describe.

For a number of years I've encouraged our kids to answer questions/talk with their competitors. I do the same, with both students and coaches. It IS about learning. 100% open about key little things that aren't readily apparent, of course not, it is a competition. Helping up the general standard of knowledge and competition, absolutely. After winning two State championships (bridge), my son talked to me about how I pretty openly share info/insights on Scioly, and his realization he'd rather have more real competition, rather than dominating. Third year, he was very open, with a number of competitors. When he won again, by a much closer margin, he really felt good, and that it meant a lot more. When he graduated, he took on ES-ing; open to all on tips on how to improve. This year, at Regionals, after the competition, he and I did a 1/2 hr seminar on booms for about 15 people; kids and coaches- a few fairly high-end tips, and basics to help folk understand you can easily do a lot better than a 2-300 gram boom (or a 1 kilogram-er, that didn't hold the bucket).

[iwonder]

I agree with being open and talking at contests, I've actually accidentally helped a competitor beat me but it's about learning, so anytime I can help out other people and teach them something(mostly what I've learned by being here, by the way), it's rewarding. At the same time, I've seen people taking close up and detailed pictures of my devices and things that I've built, and I've got a problem with that. If you want help, ask, there's not a whole lot I'll keep a secret from someone who's genuinely curious. But this person had the complete intent of leaching off my work, and that I've got a problem with. It doesn't really help anybody, it doesn't help them in the end because they haven't gone through the building that I've done and they don't know the little details, and it's demotivating to me to know that whatever I do is going to taken by competitors so there's no point in doing anything special.

Basically, I'd rather people ask for help and have a discussion than take pictures in order to try and duplicate a device(ie bracing and wood cross sections).

[Luo]

As usual, not an official source, opinion, etc. Though it was a discussion between a State Director and NSO.

Comment on photos, careful with your interpretation of that letter from NSO. The issue came up recently here in Michigan and it was NOT deemed to cover student devices. More focused on material like test questions, or things like what note will be tested on day of for Sounds of Music.

Here's the response I got from Jennifer Kopach at NSO when we discussed it:
"I think the way this reads is: devices in the public areas of competition
are fair game to be photographed (just like Paul said). I know teams feel
like their designs could be copied, but we don't have secret rooms and
shields to protect devices! Children can opt out of being photographed, but
as of now, we do not offer the same protection to the devices/contraptions.
Consider it flattery, even if unwelcome."

Michigan policy is NO protection for student devices from photography in the public events (like boomilever, robot, gliders, etc). Note, we don't say you can't cover up your devices outside the event, or that students can walk into your team room and uncover something and photo it, but you can't do it while competing. Oh, and anyone taking photos will have to do so from at least some distance as no interference with students competing will be tolerated. Picking up another teams device without explicit permission by students or coaches is right out for any reason, though event officials may need to touch devices, but not for the purpose of aiding a photograph.

Jeff Anderson
Livonia, MI

I am intrigued that this is what NSO intended when they put together that media document. In my opinion, the language used in Unacceptable Scenario #4 does not exclude photographing competitors' devices from what appears to be a blanket ban on using any "recording device... for a competitive advantage." I suppose this is just a case of wording that is a bit too vague. Thank you for the information!

[dholdgreve]

Obviously quite a difference of opinion... Probably due to extreme "competitiveness" of the Ohio teams... I still stand by my original comments... Look all you want... Sketch if you must... Talk to the builders, collaborate on designs (this requires both give and take) and even ask if a photo is permitted... But never take pics without permission... and never, ever, touch another competitor's structure without permission.

I beg to differ on the whole concept of intellectual property... It most certainly IS intellectual property, and as such, it is up to that owner to determine who and if he or she wants to share it with. I would and have readily shared all I know about boomilevers with teams outside of Ohio, and I have no problem with open discussions on scioly regarding concepts... But taking pictures violates this process... Once the picture is taken, one has no control over where it ends up... Say you have worked for 2 or 3 years perfecting a really novel concept on a structure... At your first competition, a competitor takes a close up picture of it and posts it on the internet, for every other novice builder to copy... That's just not right IMHO.