Scrambler C

[torqueburner]

Hello,
Are you able to use a ramp for scrambler? for the 2014 specs? (contruction 2C)
In other words,

Most people sort of look the other way when it comes to ramps, if that make sense, lots of people would say no and an equal amount would say yes. They still haven't replied to anyone's rule clarification admissions.

We just attended an invitational, at which Scrambler was run by the national event supervisor. He told us that our ramp launcher was a violation of the FAQ asking about rule 2h. The language added to that originally in the rules is shown in bold.

12/22/2013 - 21:07: This section of the rules states that only the wheels of the scrambler can make contact with the floor. Does this mean that the falling mass can't make contact with the floor?

(Answer) Only the wheels of the Scrambler and any parts of the Scrambler in contact with the floor at the ready to run configuration are allowed to contact the floor. If any piece falls off the Scrambler during the run, it is a construction violation. Therefore the falling mass cannot touch the ground at any time.

He said that since the wheels were not in contact with the floor before launch, they were not permitted to contact the floor during the run. Not how I interpreted the answer, but this was the interpretation of the national event supervisor. So it appears that, unless we can figure a way to get our vehicle to the barrier without the wheels contacting the floor , we need to build a new launcher

[iwonder]

(Answer) Only the wheels of the Scrambler and any parts of the Scrambler in contact with the floor

Lemme just quote part of that answer real quick...

I think that accounts for the wheels touching the floor. You may have heard it from the national ES, but even they have to yield to what's posted on the national website. If you're really uncertain you can always submit another FAQ.

[olympiaddict]

I competed at a regional competition yesterday in which someone with a push launcher whose push rod did contact the ground was scored in Tier 1 despite challenges- I'm confused as to where the ambiguity in this rule originates, because it seems very clear to me but evidently it seems to be causing problems.

[iwonder]

I think that's just one of those issues you really can't get rid of... When that FAQ was released I had a push rod luncher and the might if the contest I had to tie a string to the end so it wouldn't hit the ground when it launched :/ (I switched launchers after that )

[GoldenKnightB]

Hello,
Are you able to use a ramp for scrambler? for the 2014 specs? (contruction 2C)
In other words,

Most people sort of look the other way when it comes to ramps, if that make sense, lots of people would say no and an equal amount would say yes. They still haven't replied to anyone's rule clarification admissions.

We just attended an invitational, at which Scrambler was run by the national event supervisor. He told us that our ramp launcher was a violation of the FAQ asking about rule 2h. The language added to that originally in the rules is shown in bold.

12/22/2013 - 21:07: This section of the rules states that only the wheels of the scrambler can make contact with the floor. Does this mean that the falling mass can't make contact with the floor?

(Answer) Only the wheels of the Scrambler and any parts of the Scrambler in contact with the floor at the ready to run configuration are allowed to contact the floor. If any piece falls off the Scrambler during the run, it is a construction violation. Therefore the falling mass cannot touch the ground at any time.

He said that since the wheels were not in contact with the floor before launch, they were not permitted to contact the floor during the run. Not how I interpreted the answer, but this was the interpretation of the national event supervisor. So it appears that, unless we can figure a way to get our vehicle to the barrier without the wheels contacting the floor , we need to build a new launcher

I think it is a shame when many teams are still using ramps and the National Event Supervisor thinks that the quoted FAQ CLEARLY eliminate ramps. It is not clear and I and several others have sent in FAQ's about this very question. We were also at the invitational and we are also building a new launcher since we were placed in Tier 1 or 2 (I don't remember which).

[wlsguy]

I think that's just one of those issues you really can't get rid of... When that FAQ was released I had a push rod luncher and the might if the contest I had to tie a string to the end so it wouldn't hit the ground when it launched :/ (I switched launchers after that )

We took the exact opposite approach.
We tied a string to our pushrod so it was touching the ground the entire time.
Since it was touching at the ready to run position, it meets the requirements of the rule.

[Stingray355]

We are not using a ramp but I have some sympathy for those that want to and are having trouble determining what the rules mean. I attempted to visit the National site to read the clarification again but it is offline this morning. So based on the assumption that the quote posted is correct it would seem to me that the use of "and" would indicate that the wheels are included in the components that can make contact with the floor.
"Only the wheels of the Scrambler AND parts of the Scrambler in contact with the floor at the ready to run configuration are allowed to contact the floor"
I understand the reason for prohibiting the weight from hitting the floor, having 2 kilo weights dropped on a school floor from up to one meter high would almost certainly leave a bunch of damaged floor surfaces, not a good way to encourage schools to host events.
Where I am still unsure is if a string randomly contacted the floor after launch, it did not fall off as the FAQ mentions but it also was not in contact with the floor prior to launch. One part seems to allow this ( the string didn't fall off it is still connected to the device), the other part( it was not in contact with the floor in the ready to run configuration) prohibits. I don't think a string falling on the floor would cause damage nor do I believe that the competitors would enjoy any sort of competitive advantage.

This would seem to be a good thing to get clarified as the season is advancing towards regional and State competitions and the possibility of outcomes being determined by inconsistent criteria. I can understand an ES using the spirit of the rules to look at this and logically come to a number of different conclusions.

[joeyjoejoe]

After a little more thought on this, I now disagree with the logic of the rules clarification regarding the falling mass touching the floor- though I'm adhering to it. I understand the need to require this but I don't think rule 2h requires this.

2h : "Only the wheels of the Scrambler may touch the floor" -- Either this bans a separate launching system altogether (since it must touch the floor) or "Scrambler" here refers to the car only.

BUUUTTT we have...
2a: "The Scrambler must consist of an egg transport and an energy propulsion system" -- Oops! This implies Scrambler = Car + Launcher.

Yet wording elsewhere loosely implies (again) that they are indeed separate....
4a: "The entire Scrambler system must be impounded.."
and 4f: "...All parts of the scrambler must be behind the starting line."


So, in short, I'm confused. Maybe 2h should read: "Only the wheels of the egg transport may touch the floor. Then there aren't any ambiguities except then an explicit rule regarding the falling mass not touching the floor would need to be added. Again, it makes perfect sense to prevent the mass (or launch stick since it can be heavy) from touching the floor. Just not based on the logic in the clarification of 2h.

For this reason, I also believe any string should be able to touch the floor as it poses no risk to the floor and is not prohibited by 2h.

[Smithy0013]

You know, I really think the rules were just poorly written and thought of for this year. Theres a lot of ambiguities and it overcomplicates a lot that just simply doesn't need to be complicated in the spirit of the event (using gravity to propel a car). There is no reason at this point in the season that a large portion of the competition is getting tiered construction violations or their wheels arent touching the floor at the start. It's just all very silly to me and it really distorts the end scoring because there are teams that do very well but their backstop is a touch off (maybe some poor cutting) and theyre tiered and I dont feel like i deserve the rank above them but i get it anyway. I still love this event but i really hope there are some serious modifications to the rules for next year. With all due respect to the rule writers of course. I understand that writing rules for an event that hasn't run in years is a difficult challenge and there are many things the did well (I like the increase in the time factor from 3 to 5 for instance). I just hope that this is taken as a learning experience for next year

[joeyjoejoe]

As is the case in law, sports and just about everything that has rules, you typically start with relatively few of them and, in the end, have a bunch of them. One of the reasons is human kind's desire for advancement. If the rules (or laws etc) don't specifically prohibit something that can yield a gain for people, it won't take long for some savvy person to figure it out. In short, it's because its a competition that the rules are so wordy and complicated in some cases. If you've ever competed in "Write-it, Do-it", you know how easy it is for your "perfectly clear" words to be misunderstood. I'm sure the writers of the rules, some of them previous competitors themselves, start off with a simply-stated event and then the fun begins. Now they must figure out what clever, deviant tricks that are outside the original intentions of the event will be discovered by the competitors and then add a rule to prohibit these techniques until, finally, your one paragraph event description is 2 pages long.