Ohio 2010

[Deeisenberg]

Ohio hosts arguably the most competitive invitational tournaments in the country.

Athens Invitational (in Northern PA) is pretty competitive as well.

http://yfrog.com/0lsciolypic1p

Jussayin'

...

Athens has three teams that have consistently come top 10 at nationals (Harriton, Fayetteville, and Penncrest), two of which have won nationals within the past five years (Harriton and Fayetteville), as well as many other top PA and NY teams. It's nothing to scoff at. I'm not saying it is more or less competitive than some of the most competitive of the Ohio invitationals, but it is certainly not "nothing" in comparison.

[dontsenditinthemail]

and invitationals like Northmont (in Ohio) host teams that placed 2 and 5 in 2007,2 and 3 in 2008 and 1 and 7 in 2009 (in div C) not to mention the two time defending div B champs....point Ohio invitationals

[scienceolympiadist]

Northmont in 6 weeks!

[sciolykid101]

Does it actually matter...? They're both good practices. I wish I could go to both Athens and Ohio for the "full" experience. However, my state is too far from Pennsylvania, so we could only go to Ohio.

[Deeisenberg]

and invitationals like Northmont (in Ohio) host teams that placed 2 and 5 in 2007,2 and 3 in 2008 and 1 and 7 in 2009 (in div C) not to mention the two time defending div B champs....point Ohio invitationals

First: I don't care about B.

Second: Athens hosts the three teams that placed 1, 3, and 8 in 2004, 1, 5, and 11 in 2005, 4, 5, and 9 in 2006, 4, 7, and 8 in 2007, 5, 7, and 8 in 2008, and 4, 5, and 6 in 2009. Add on to this a top 3/4 PA team that has come very close to beating two of those schools, and could easily get top 10 in a decent year.
Is the average as high, no. However when you are looking at actual competitiveness, it also matters how many good teams.

I actually really don't care that much about it, and the accomplishments of the teams at an invitational don't make it better because the competition itself doesn't mean anything. It's just good practice. Still, it irks me that A: you act like it is infinitely superior, and B: you act like you run the thing and it's being good is a reflection on yourself.

[Flavorflav]

and invitationals like Northmont (in Ohio) host teams that placed 2 and 5 in 2007,2 and 3 in 2008 and 1 and 7 in 2009 (in div C) not to mention the two time defending div B champs....point Ohio invitationals

First: I don't care about B.

Second: Athens hosts the three teams that placed 1, 3, and 8 in 2004, 1, 5, and 11 in 2005, 4, 5, and 9 in 2006, 4, 7, and 8 in 2007, 5, 7, and 8 in 2008, and 4, 5, and 6 in 2009. Add on to this a top 3/4 PA team that has come very close to beating two of those schools, and could easily get top 10 in a decent year.
Is the average as high, no. However when you are looking at actual competitiveness, it also matters how many good teams.

I actually really don't care that much about it, and the accomplishments of the teams at an invitational don't make it better because the competition itself doesn't mean anything. It's just good practice. Still, it irks me that A: you act like it is infinitely superior, and B: you act like you run the thing and it's being good is a reflection on yourself.

Point Deeisenberg.

[dontsenditinthemail]

and invitationals like Northmont (in Ohio) host teams that placed 2 and 5 in 2007,2 and 3 in 2008 and 1 and 7 in 2009 (in div C) not to mention the two time defending div B champs....point Ohio invitationals

First: I don't care about B.

Second: Athens hosts the three teams that placed 1, 3, and 8 in 2004, 1, 5, and 11 in 2005, 4, 5, and 9 in 2006, 4, 7, and 8 in 2007, 5, 7, and 8 in 2008, and 4, 5, and 6 in 2009. Add on to this a top 3/4 PA team that has come very close to beating two of those schools, and could easily get top 10 in a decent year.
Is the average as high, no. However when you are looking at actual competitiveness, it also matters how many good teams.

I actually really don't care that much about it, and the accomplishments of the teams at an invitational don't make it better because the competition itself doesn't mean anything. It's just good practice. Still, it irks me that A: you act like it is infinitely superior, and B: you act like you run the thing and it's being good is a reflection on yourself.

Point Deeisenberg.

The bottom line is this:

The last time any team that competes at Athens invitational beat the top team that competes at Northmont at the national tournament was more than 3 years ago, and 2 years ago no team that went to Athens beat either of the top 2 teams that competed at Ohio's Northmont invitational. I would have to say that that statistic sums up why Ohio invitationals, at least in this case, are more competitive.

Well actually I believe that my team's performances do contribute to how competitive invitationals are. However, stepping away from myself, Northmont Invitational, the one i referenced earlier, hosts Solon, Centerville, and Mentor, three teams that on any given year have had a lower average at nationals than any other state's teams with more than one team competing. Furthermore, considering only 2 of these teams get to compete at Nationals each year, and considering that during invitational season it is often quite even between the three previously mentioned teams, and looking at how close state results normally are, it is not a large extrapolation to say that the third place team in Ohio (either Solon, Centerville, or Mentor) and thus the third place team at Northmont would be extremely competitive with any team at nationals. For example, Solon beat Mentor in every invitational last year (including, judging by regional results, what seemed to be an astounding victory at the regional tournament) and lost for the first time at the State tournament - Mentor went on to get 7th at national (of course the state tournament is all that really matters so in the end I do understand if you question that line of thinking, however it still shows the obvious talent of the third team at Northmont). Furthermore, at the last large invitational of 2008, Solon beat Centerville by over 30 points at an invitational with over 30 teams- Centerville of course went on to win the national championship. Hence if judging by just the top 3 teams is somehow so much more "deep" than judging the top 2 teams (and I too could throw on another 4 teams that are always competitive and take their fair share of medals), I would once again have to say that Ohio Invitationals, and in fact the top 3 teams in Ohio, are the deepest trio at any competition I have come across, and recently they are certainly the most decorated in the nation (again, Ohio teams at nationals often have the lowest average of any state with 2 teams).

[scienceolympiadist]

Of the 38 teams at the Northmont Invitational, 3 are from Centerville, 3 from Mentor, 2 from Solon. That's 8 right there already. Based on the previous user's post, it sure looks like it's going to be a heck of a battle to start off this yera.

[Deeisenberg]

First: I don't care about B.

Second: Athens hosts the three teams that placed 1, 3, and 8 in 2004, 1, 5, and 11 in 2005, 4, 5, and 9 in 2006, 4, 7, and 8 in 2007, 5, 7, and 8 in 2008, and 4, 5, and 6 in 2009. Add on to this a top 3/4 PA team that has come very close to beating two of those schools, and could easily get top 10 in a decent year.
Is the average as high, no. However when you are looking at actual competitiveness, it also matters how many good teams.

I actually really don't care that much about it, and the accomplishments of the teams at an invitational don't make it better because the competition itself doesn't mean anything. It's just good practice. Still, it irks me that A: you act like it is infinitely superior, and B: you act like you run the thing and it's being good is a reflection on yourself.

Point Deeisenberg.

The bottom line is this:

The last time any team that competes at Athens invitational beat the top team that competes at Northmont at the national tournament was more than 3 years ago, and 2 years ago no team that went to Athens beat either of the top 2 teams that competed at Ohio's Northmont invitational. I would have to say that that statistic sums up why Ohio invitationals, at least in this case, are more competitive.

Well actually I believe that my team's performances do contribute to how competitive invitationals are. However, stepping away from myself, Northmont Invitational, the one i referenced earlier, hosts Solon, Centerville, and Mentor, three teams that on any given year have had a lower average at nationals than any other state's teams with more than one team competing. Furthermore, considering only 2 of these teams get to compete at Nationals each year, and considering that during invitational season it is often quite even between the three previously mentioned teams, and looking at how close state results normally are, it is not a large extrapolation to say that the third place team in Ohio (either Solon, Centerville, or Mentor) and thus the third place team at Northmont would be extremely competitive with any team at nationals. For example, Solon beat Mentor in every invitational last year (including, judging by regional results, what seemed to be an astounding victory at the regional tournament) and lost for the first time at the State tournament - Mentor went on to get 7th at national (of course the state tournament is all that really matters so in the end I do understand if you question that line of thinking, however it still shows the obvious talent of the third team at Northmont). Furthermore, at the last large invitational of 2008, Solon beat Centerville by over 30 points at an invitational with over 30 teams- Centerville of course went on to win the national championship. Hence if judging by just the top 3 teams is somehow so much more "deep" than judging the top 2 teams (and I too could throw on another 4 teams that are always competitive and take their fair share of medals), I would once again have to say that Ohio Invitationals, and in fact the top 3 teams in Ohio, are the deepest trio at any competition I have come across, and recently they are certainly the most decorated in the nation (again, Ohio teams at nationals often have the lowest average of any state with 2 teams).

Oh, I forgot some...
Another team at Athens was 15th in '08, and 14th in '07. There is another that got 8th in '06.
Also if you want to go further back, there is a 7th in '03. There is a 1st in '88, and 3rd in '89 (okay, yes, completely meaningless).
Yet another team, Conestoga, came 3rd in PA in '07 and '08, They could probably have gotten top 15 (at least) at nationals.
Add in the 3rd place high school from PA last year, Bayard Rustin. They got 151 points at states, the 6th place team at nationals got 138, and the 4th place team got 65. That is a score that demonstrates that they have the ability to be competitive at the national level.

The best team at most Ohio invitationals is better than the best at Athens. The average however, or at least the average of the best 10 or so teams, I take Athens.

2 years ago no team that went to Athens beat either of the top 2 teams that competed at Ohio's Northmont invitational.

However last year there was only one team at any Ohio invitational that beat ANY of the top three (by nationals performance) teams at Athens.

Now honestly, if any of the top 3 teams from Ohio competed at Athens in the same way they do at the Ohio invitationals, they would destroy everyone. The reason for this is not that they are ALL better than ALL of the teams at Athens (though some most likely are, I'm not saying otherwise). The reason is that of the three teams at Athens that do the best nationally, none try exceptionally hard there. Penncrest mixes their team, with their two teams both being about equally good. I don't think that Fayetteville brings their building events. As for Harriton, we compete with only our underclassmen.

Why do this? Because the point of an invitational is not the competition anyway. The point of an invitational is the experience.

[dontsenditinthemail]

Why do this? Because the point of an invitational is not the competition anyway. The point of an invitational is the experience.

I completely agree there.

Also I guess we're not so different from Athens invite teams as at least 2 of the top three teams at Ohio Invitationals (Solon and Centerville, I cannot speak to Mentor not having spoken to people from their team lately) only use their top teams at the State and National tournaments (as I think you indicated was the case with the top teams at Athens too), so what you are seeing at invitationals in Ohio is the depth of those teams (aka Centerville and Solon have at least 30 students that can compete and win any invitational yet it isn't until State that the actual team of the 15 best is used). I guess really with any built-up program it is probably like that though.

In the end I think your quote summed it up. Honestly, it isn't even about how good the invitational is from a "whose competing standpoint" that makes an invitational worthwhile, it is the quality of the tests and how knowledgeable the event judges are. Invitationals, after all, are simply tune-ups for the real show (regional/state/national tournaments)!