3 Sided Tower?

Balsa Man
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Re: 3 Sided Tower?

Post by Balsa Man »

Crtomir wrote:You're welcome. Let us know how your 3-sided tower performed. Most of the best scores this year, probably all the scores over 3000, were built with 4 sides, not going for the bonus, and 9-10 simple X-braces on each side. We did try 3-sided towers for a little bit, but never got much over 2000-2200 points with them.
In addition to the issues noted- which I totally agree with, there is another important one; its a compression loading vectors issue; the direction that the legs try/want to buckle under load. Buckling will occur in the weakest direction.

With a square cross section, buckling will be from the center axis toward one of the 4 faces. With a ladders and Xs bracing configuration, the ladders brace against one leg trying to buckle inward, toward an adjacent leg, and the Xs brace against outward buckling of one leg away from the adjacent leg. The load put on the ladder is axial- along the axis of the ladder. In an Xs only configuration, with the Xs lap jointed, compression loading isn't perfectly axial, but its parallel to the axis of the brace. With three square cross section legs, the legs are going to try to buckle toward one of the faces. That's at a 30 degree angle to the axis of the brace. That means that any pressure developing as load comes on the tower is acting to bend the brace. To resist that bending, the brace has to be significantly stronger than it would need to be if it saw axial, or near axial loading.

The initially apparent solution to that is triangular cross section legs; with an equilateral triangle cross section, the faces of two adjacent legs are parallel to each other, so one would assume buckling would be toward one of the faces, that would axially (or near axially) load a brace resisting incipient buckling of one leg toward an adjacent leg. However, that's not what happens. If you do a little research on "I", the second moment (aka cross-sectional moment) of inertia, it has both a....value- a number that depends on cross-sectional dimension, and a direction; a vector. That vector is not perpendicular to the face; it's on the order of 10-15 degrees. So, the off-axis loading onto the brace is not as bad/severe as in the case of a square cross section, but it is....quite significant, so, again, the bracing needs to be stiffer/stronger/heavier than it has to be in a 4 leg configuration. Put all these factors together, that's why a 3 legger is never going to be as efficient as a 4 legger.....

One last comment on the direction of going to really low density 3/16. Yes, as discussed, bigger cross section gets you substantially increased "I", and the value of "I" goes up faster than the weight goes up (the reason we've gone from 1/8" to 5/32" legs). But as the density goes down (the way you can take advantage of the increased value of "I"), you start to run into a tension problem; the bracing needs to handle both compression loading (one leg trying to buckle toward the adjacent leg), and tension loading (one leg trying to buckle away from the adjacent leg). At really low density, shear failure- a thin layer of the leg, where the brace is glued to it pulling away....becomes a limiting factor, and the only solutions carry a weight penalty. We're hoping/trying a little bit of thin CA, which will soak into the leg wood a bit, in the areas where Xs cross the legs, but with the number of X joints, even a little bit at each joint adds up quickly. This issue is most severe at the bottom, because of the force pushing adjacent bottom leg ends apart, so we're hoping that ...treatment to strengthen X joint s will only be needed on the bottom X, maybe the two bottom Xs. We'll see soon.
Len Joeris
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Re: 3 Sided Tower?

Post by Crtomir »

Balsa Man wrote: With a square cross section, buckling will be from the center axis toward one of the 4 faces. With a ladders and Xs bracing configuration, the ladders brace against one leg trying to buckle inward, toward an adjacent leg, and the Xs brace against outward buckling of one leg away from the adjacent leg. The load put on the ladder is axial- along the axis of the ladder. In an Xs only configuration, with the Xs lap jointed, compression loading isn't perfectly axial, but its parallel to the axis of the brace. With three square cross section legs, the legs are going to try to buckle toward one of the faces. That's at a 30 degree angle to the axis of the brace. That means that any pressure developing as load comes on the tower is acting to bend the brace. To resist that bending, the brace has to be significantly stronger than it would need to be if it saw axial, or near axial loading.
True. I remember now that we did see the X-braces start to bend outward when the tower was loaded. This explains why. You truly have thought through so many fine details of this Tower design/build. It's amazing. Sometimes I think if we could get these kids to work on the really big important problems for society, we could make a lot more progress than governments. The level of detail and optimization that some of these teams go through in their devices is really much more than a lot of professional engineers do.

I hope the 5/32" leg tower works out for your teams. Most people intuitively, but incorrectly, think the opposite: that it's better to go with thinner, more dense legs to save weight. Going to thicker, less dense legs is in-line with the theory. I'll be curious to know how it turns out.
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Re: 3 Sided Tower?

Post by Juanyjose »

Okay so I'm going to take a triangle tower to nationals. It weighs 6.9 grams on my scale but usually my scale says things are heavier than they actually are, so it should be about 6.5 grams.

The reason I'm going with 3 legs is because it worked for me better than my not-very-good 4 leggers did, and I have other events I have to worry about. Best of luck to everyone else at nats!

So yea I'll be super easy to recognize because I'll be probably the only person with a triangle tower. Or one of the few.

And I'm about to get roasted in T-20.. 19... 18...
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Re: 3 Sided Tower?

Post by Raleway »

Juanyjose wrote:Okay so I'm going to take a triangle tower to nationals. It weighs 6.9 grams on my scale but usually my scale says things are heavier than they actually are, so it should be about 6.5 grams.

The reason I'm going with 3 legs is because it worked for me better than my not-very-good 4 leggers did, and I have other events I have to worry about. Best of luck to everyone else at nats!

So yea I'll be super easy to recognize because I'll be probably the only person with a triangle tower. Or one of the few.

And I'm about to get roasted in T-20.. 19... 18...
Best of luck to you! Don't worry- if it wins, no one can roast you.
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Re: 3 Sided Tower?

Post by Balsa Man »

So, how'd it do?
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Re: 3 Sided Tower?

Post by Juanyjose »

Balsa Man wrote:So, how'd it do?
:lol: really bad

Score of 1697, weighed 7.01 held 9.9 kg (+2kg bonus). 24th place.

The issue was the bracing. It wasn't strong enough, and after the bracing broke, the whole structure followed.

Kinda disappointing that I missed that... I finished reading your post about why 3 legged bracing is bad after the tower was finished so by then it was too late.

Also I got to see Preston's tower! They tested 2 groups ahead of me. They did good, so congrats!
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Re: 3 Sided Tower?

Post by Balsa Man »

Juanyjose wrote:
Balsa Man wrote:So, how'd it do?
:lol: really bad

Score of 1697, weighed 7.01 held 9.9 kg (+2kg bonus). 24th place.

The issue was the bracing. It wasn't strong enough, and after the bracing broke, the whole structure followed.

Kinda disappointing that I missed that... I finished reading your post about why 3 legged bracing is bad after the tower was finished so by then it was too late.

Also I got to see Preston's tower! They tested 2 groups ahead of me. They did good, so congrats!
Darn, I'm sorry to hear it didn't do better. However, in the upper half at Nationals, that's really something to be proud of. So, congrats to you for that accomplishment.
Thinking outside the box, and being willing to go for it, those are good things. Learning, getting a real understanding of how things do and don't work, that's science; what S.O. is all about. There's a fine line/balance between ....doing what the "experts" say can't be done, and understanding what a good analysis says can and can't be done, and why. I've found myself on both sides of that line over the years. It really does seem at first, that a 3 leg approach can do better that a 4 leg one. The devil, as always, is in the details. Thanks for your contributions to the....book of knowledge we've compiled this year. Looking forward to your input next year.

I'll pass your congrats on to Preston; glad you got to see them/their tower. With all the drama they went through, yup, they did good; I'm proud of them.
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Re: 3 Sided Tower?

Post by Juanyjose »

Balsa Man wrote:
Juanyjose wrote:
Balsa Man wrote:So, how'd it do?
:lol: really bad

Score of 1697, weighed 7.01 held 9.9 kg (+2kg bonus). 24th place.

The issue was the bracing. It wasn't strong enough, and after the bracing broke, the whole structure followed.

Kinda disappointing that I missed that... I finished reading your post about why 3 legged bracing is bad after the tower was finished so by then it was too late.

Also I got to see Preston's tower! They tested 2 groups ahead of me. They did good, so congrats!
Darn, I'm sorry to hear it didn't do better. However, in the upper half at Nationals, that's really something to be proud of. So, congrats to you for that accomplishment.
Thinking outside the box, and being willing to go for it, those are good things. Learning, getting a real understanding of how things do and don't work, that's science; what S.O. is all about. There's a fine line/balance between ....doing what the "experts" say can't be done, and understanding what a good analysis says can and can't be done, and why. I've found myself on both sides of that line over the years. It really does seem at first, that a 3 leg approach can do better that a 4 leg one. The devil, as always, is in the details. Thanks for your contributions to the....book of knowledge we've compiled this year. Looking forward to your input next year.

I'll pass your congrats on to Preston; glad you got to see them/their tower. With all the drama they went through, yup, they did good; I'm proud of them.
Yes. I've never really found myself on the expert side of the line. I don't think I'll compete next year (my team is going to try to convince the high school teacher to start a div C team) but if not then I'll probably coach the middle school, they don't have anyone doing towers. So yeah, see you next year! Thanks!

Hopefully by then I'll figure out how to cross that line. (Time to go back and reread all the threads)
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Re: 3 Sided Tower?

Post by Raleway »

Hopefully, someone in the summer will compile this whole thread into one doc... summer goals for the team next year?
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Re: 3 Sided Tower?

Post by cheese »

Raleway wrote:Hopefully, someone in the summer will compile this whole thread into one doc... summer goals for the team next year?
That will be one long doc.
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