Designs

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bernard
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Re: Designs

Post by bernard »

BlueBlur107 wrote:First year my school has ever done this event and I'm kind of on my own here. I'm racking my brain trying to figure out how the final ball scored can activate the buzzer if there is nothing allowed in the jugg. Can the ball exit the jugg and still be scored? Also, just for clarification for a energy transfer to be scored it must be initiated by a golf ball correct? Thanks guys.
The ball could trigger a switch before it rolls into a scoring jug. Please see all the FAQs for this event since some things are confusing and have had answers changed. For an energy transfer sequence to be scored, the initiating golf ball does not need to be scoring but it still needs to be initiated by a golf ball. I've quoted a relevant FAQ below:
Science Olympiad wrote:Do the initiating and final golf balls have to be eligible for scoring in order for an ETS to be eligible for scoring? Initiating and final referring to the golf ball starting the ETS and the golf ball released at the end of the transfer. (section: 4 / paragraph: b / line: 1)
No. Neither the initiating nor the final golf balls need to be scoreable balls in order for an ETS to be eligible for scoring.
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Re: Designs

Post by olynewbie »

Will we be allowed to use transistors?
Also, are we allowed to manually switch off motors?
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Re: Designs

Post by Phys1cs »

olynewbie wrote:Also, are we allowed to manually switch off motors?
Once your run is completed, I have had no issue asking the event sup to allow me to disconnect my motors before they overheat. During your run, however, I don't think they would unless you want it counted for a touch. The device has to run autonomously until the buzzer sounds or 3 minutes have elapsed, and turning off your motors during the run isn't truly autonomous.
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Re: Designs

Post by sjwon3789 »

hey guys, I'm still having trouble finding motors. Currently, I'm using a motor from a screwdriver but that's too strong and it's going to be costy to get 4 more of them. The motors at stores seem to be really weak (if we utilize threads). Any suggestions?
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Re: Designs

Post by JonB »

sjwon3789 wrote:hey guys, I'm still having trouble finding motors. Currently, I'm using a motor from a screwdriver but that's too strong and it's going to be costy to get 4 more of them. The motors at stores seem to be really weak (if we utilize threads). Any suggestions?
Does your school have any tetrix motors? Robotics programs commonly have them.
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Re: Designs

Post by chalker »

sjwon3789 wrote:hey guys, I'm still having trouble finding motors. Currently, I'm using a motor from a screwdriver but that's too strong and it's going to be costy to get 4 more of them. The motors at stores seem to be really weak (if we utilize threads). Any suggestions?
Have you looked at your local hobby shop or online?

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Re: Designs

Post by sjwon3789 »

chalker wrote:
sjwon3789 wrote:hey guys, I'm still having trouble finding motors. Currently, I'm using a motor from a screwdriver but that's too strong and it's going to be costy to get 4 more of them. The motors at stores seem to be really weak (if we utilize threads). Any suggestions?
Have you looked at your local hobby shop or online?
I searched through what radioshack has but the motors are too weak.
Are there any particular one there that I can use, that I might have overlooked, or any other shops I can search through?
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Re: Designs

Post by chalker »

sjwon3789 wrote:
chalker wrote:
sjwon3789 wrote:hey guys, I'm still having trouble finding motors. Currently, I'm using a motor from a screwdriver but that's too strong and it's going to be costy to get 4 more of them. The motors at stores seem to be really weak (if we utilize threads). Any suggestions?
Have you looked at your local hobby shop or online?
I searched through what radioshack has but the motors are too weak.
Are there any particular one there that I can use, that I might have overlooked, or any other shops I can search through?
Radioshack isn't really a 'hobby' shop. Most any city should have a local hobby shop - do a google search for yours. Tower Hobbies is a big online one you can look at. All else fails, Amazon.com is also a place to look.

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Re: Designs

Post by Phys1cs »

sjwon3789 wrote:
chalker wrote:
sjwon3789 wrote:hey guys, I'm still having trouble finding motors. Currently, I'm using a motor from a screwdriver but that's too strong and it's going to be costy to get 4 more of them. The motors at stores seem to be really weak (if we utilize threads). Any suggestions?
Have you looked at your local hobby shop or online?
I searched through what radioshack has but the motors are too weak.
Are there any particular one there that I can use, that I might have overlooked, or any other shops I can search through?
What exactly are you using the motors for? I use radioshack's 1-3V motors and they work perfectly for me run at 3V

http://www.radioshack.com/1-5-to-3vdc-h ... r&start=10
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Re: Designs

Post by patil215 »

I apologize for bringing this topic up again, but I am still confused about the requirement of scored vs unscored golf balls and their necessity in ETS eligibility.

The original rules state (bold text is mine):
A bonus ETS is defined to "receive points only if: 1) it is initiated by the process of a golf ball moving into a scoring jug (cannot be counted as an Energy Form); 2) it has a sequence of 2 or more transfers from one Energy Form to a different Energy Form; 3) the ETS is successful in its entirety as listed in the ASL; 4) it causes the next golf ball to move toward and into a scoring jug; 5) the device ceases to work when the ETS is not successful or the ETS is removed; and 6) both the initiating golf ball and next golf ball drop into a scoring jug.

One rules clarification states:

2014-10-26 19:58 Do the initiating and final golf balls have to be eligible for scoring in order for an ETS to be eligible for scoring? Initiating and final referring to the golf ball starting the ETS and the golf ball released at the end of the transfer.
Yes, both the initiating and final golf balls must be eligible for scoring in order for an ETS to be eligible for scoring.
No. Neither the initiating nor the final golf balls need to be scoreable balls in order for an ETS to be eligible for scoring.

Another states:

2014-10-26 19:42 If more than one golf ball is being sorted, do you just drop one in to start the device and the others are already placed in the device, or must all of them be dropped in?
The Start Task golf ball is the only one that is not in the device at the Start. All other golf balls must begin in the device. at a point below the bottom of the lowest scoring plastic beverage jug. (Italics signify this text was crossed out)

Another states:

2014-10-22 08:07 Can objects, other than scoring golf balls, be placed inside of the scoring jugs, provided that they do not alter the inside surface of the jug?
No, objects other than the scoring golf balls may not be inside the scoring jugs. The inside of the scoring jug may not contain any objects, excluding scoring golf balls, throughout the duration of the run.

For the purposes of my argument I will ignore the contradiction in the third rules clarification as an error and assume that non-scoring golf balls can be in the jug.
As Chalker stated, the intent of these clarifications is to allow for ETS points if one golf ball is to fail. (For example, if an ETS is planned to have 2 + 50 + 2 points, and for whatever reason the second golf ball does not get into the jug, the ETS will still receive credit). However, I think these clarifications can be interpreted such that they do not require the attempted lifting of golf balls into a jug to cause ETS points.

As an example, we can hypothetically take two competitors:
One competitor interprets the clarifications as allowing for possible failure in lifting the golf balls, but still requiring the attempted lifting in order to qualify as starting and ending an ETS. As a result, he designs and builds 6 components to vertically lift the golf balls the required distance into the jug, spending significantly more time and possibly reducing the reliability of his device. In addition, the added components make his device larger, causing him to lose some of his competitive advantage.
The other competitor interprets the clarifications as allowing for not having to lift golf balls such that they become "scoreable". He simply has them start near the top of the jug and uses a simple mechanism to push them into the jug, allowing him to spend less time in construction, increase the reliability of his device, and reduce the size but still gain the significant ETS bonus points.

If the second competitor's interpretation is legal, at the national level he or she would have a significant advantage.

Ultimately, the judged legality of the device will come down to which way the proctor interprets the rules clarifications at the competition - whether the second competitor's interpretation does or does not violate the General Rules ("interpreting the rules in a way to give an unfair advantage"). Since a given proctor can obviously vary, given the ambiguity of the clarifications my concern is that differentiation between the winning and losing competitors will become a question of which interprets the rules more liberally and is able to get away with it rather than which has built the best device.

Any thoughts or a definitive response to this ambiguity (or at the very least, a ruling on how this would be interpreted at the national level) would be much appreciated. For now, I will interpret this in the most restrictive sense (that you are required to attempt to lift the golf balls to receive ETS points). I would send a rules clarification to try to get a clearer ruling, but I am not sure how to succinctly phrase the situation and my concerns in a clarification format that would yield a meaningful response, especially considering the existing contradictions in the previous clarifications.

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