Simple Machines B/Compound Machines C

[GoldenKnight1]

I made hooks out of paperclips that can slide along the meterstick.

Wouldn't these paperclips violate rule 3e about not having moving masses? I assume you mean to have these clips moving to determine the mass.

[hscmom]

I made hooks out of paperclips that can slide along the meterstick.

Wouldn't these paperclips violate rule 3e about not having moving masses? I assume you mean to have these clips moving to determine the mass.

Hmmm - we're using little plastic sliders fashioned out of the clips that hold bread bags shut. Of course, they are not massless. When I read the "movable mass" rule I am imagining something that is there solely to be mass, something used to measure the mass that was hung off the beam. I would imagine that a paper clip or our kids' plastic hanger would not be considered a moving mass.

BUT, now that you mentioned it - probably time for a clarification. Holy cow, I hope little things designed only to allow us to hang and move masses to be OK.

I'll go ask now on SOINC because it's 13 days til regionals.

Thanks for bringing that up...

[chalker]

Hmmm - we're using little plastic sliders fashioned out of the clips that hold bread bags shut. Of course, they are not massless. When I read the "movable mass" rule I am imagining something that is there solely to be mass, something used to measure the mass that was hung off the beam. I would imagine that a paper clip or our kids' plastic hanger would not be considered a moving mass.

BUT, now that you mentioned it - probably time for a clarification. Holy cow, I hope little things designed only to allow us to hang and move masses to be OK.

I'll go ask now on SOINC because it's 13 days til regionals.

Thanks for bringing that up...

As always, this isn't the place for official comments or clarifications. However I'll note that small hangers like these are entirely within the spirit of the event and not an issue. I believe we've already responded to some similar questions privately, just haven't publicly posted a FAQ.

[GoldenKnight1]

As always, this isn't the place for official comments or clarifications. However I'll note that small hangers like these are entirely within the spirit of the event and not an issue. I believe we've already responded to some similar questions privately, just haven't publicly posted a FAQ.

This would be a good one to clarify in a nationally posted FAQ as I have been a judge and supervisor once each for this event and had two other supervisors on separate occasions agree with the ruling that those moving hooks are masses that are not fixed. While we all believed that it was likely this was never the intent of the rules to think a small mass like that was an issue we could not go by what we believed was intended in the rules but rather what was written out in the manual and on the national website. I would be happy to judge this the other way if it was made official.

[TrueshotBarrage]

Well, the main problem for us was measuring the masses quickly. Keeping the ratios exact and at the same time measuring them quickly was very hard to do, so if I do get to go to state (our coach is changing teams), then hopefully I can make some better adjustments to do it faster.

The test was as expected; pretty similar to what we studied, some questions were challenging, etc. but mostly, we felt pretty confident about the questions.

Thank you again to everyone and good luck!

[joeyjoejoe]

As always, this isn't the place for official comments or clarifications. However I'll note that small hangers like these are entirely within the spirit of the event and not an issue. I believe we've already responded to some similar questions privately, just haven't publicly posted a FAQ.

This would be a good one to clarify in a nationally posted FAQ as I have been a judge and supervisor once each for this event and had two other supervisors on separate occasions agree with the ruling that those moving hooks are masses that are not fixed. While we all believed that it was likely this was never the intent of the rules to think a small mass like that was an issue we could not go by what we believed was intended in the rules but rather what was written out in the manual and on the national website. I would be happy to judge this the other way if it was made official.

I agree with Chalker that this is obviously not the intent of rule 3e. I would be inclined to think hooks would be nearly required because of the possibility that the loop ("large enough to pass a golf ball through") may not be as large as required and therefore not fit over your beam.

Hey Bernard! I noticed you used a ruler as a beam. Surely you had hooks for this reason, right?

[bernard]

As always, this isn't the place for official comments or clarifications. However I'll note that small hangers like these are entirely within the spirit of the event and not an issue. I believe we've already responded to some similar questions privately, just haven't publicly posted a FAQ.

This would be a good one to clarify in a nationally posted FAQ as I have been a judge and supervisor once each for this event and had two other supervisors on separate occasions agree with the ruling that those moving hooks are masses that are not fixed. While we all believed that it was likely this was never the intent of the rules to think a small mass like that was an issue we could not go by what we believed was intended in the rules but rather what was written out in the manual and on the national website. I would be happy to judge this the other way if it was made official.

I agree with Chalker that this is obviously not the intent of rule 3e. I would be inclined to think hooks would be nearly required because of the possibility that the loop ("large enough to pass a golf ball through") may not be as large as required and therefore not fit over your beam.

Hey Bernard! I noticed you used a ruler as a beam. Surely you had hooks for this reason, right?

Yes, I did use a ruler! I'm not sure what reason you're referring to. Could you clarify?

[bernard]

As always, this isn't the place for official comments or clarifications. However I'll note that small hangers like these are entirely within the spirit of the event and not an issue. I believe we've already responded to some similar questions privately, just haven't publicly posted a FAQ.

This would be a good one to clarify in a nationally posted FAQ as I have been a judge and supervisor once each for this event and had two other supervisors on separate occasions agree with the ruling that those moving hooks are masses that are not fixed. While we all believed that it was likely this was never the intent of the rules to think a small mass like that was an issue we could not go by what we believed was intended in the rules but rather what was written out in the manual and on the national website. I would be happy to judge this the other way if it was made official.

I submitted a question to the FAQs, and hopefully they will post its response publicly.

[hscmom]

I also submitted a question at soinc. Although it's discussed here, it's always good to have an official answer that we can show to tournament event supervisors if needed. Yes, it benefits our team, but it also benefits all the other teams too if the supervisors are aware of not only the rules but also the clarifications. Sometimes it seems like the supervisors don't even know there ARE rules.

[GoldenKnight1]

I agree with Chalker that this is obviously not the intent of rule 3e. I would be inclined to think hooks would be nearly required because of the possibility that the loop ("large enough to pass a golf ball through") may not be as large as required and therefore not fit over your beam.

Or was it that the rules so clearly state the size of the loops so that levers can accommodate the loops in their design. A loop that a golf ball can fit through allows for other solutions.

it's always good to have an official answer that we can show to tournament event supervisors if needed.

I assume you are referring to the individually emailed responses that we get. In our state those are not accepted by appeal committees and some supervisors. Much better to have this cleared up on the National website as an FAQ.