Designs

[lchs]

Just to add to the discussion about updated FAQs, I found the following one recently:

http://soinc.org/node/1476

The cross out suggests that all golf balls do not have to start below the bottom of the lowest scoring jug.

[goodcheer]

I'm not sure I understand what the contradiction is.

From: http://soinc.org/node/1500
Yes, all golf balls must start completely below any of the scoring jugs except for the first golf ball.

From: http://soinc.org/node/1479
No. Neither the initiating nor the final golf balls need to be scoreable balls in order for an ETS to be eligible for scoring.

The former says all golf balls must start completely below the scoring jug except for the first one and the later suggests the ones used for an ETS do not. Or are you saying they all must start below the jug, but something else about the ETS balls make them non-scoreable? Not starting below the jug would make the balls non-scoreable; is there something else you have in mind?

One other glaring inconsistency is the fact that the rules speak of the jug as a "scoring jug" every time it is mentioned. Was it not the intent of the rules that the balls that enter a scoring jug be a scoreable ball? But now the balls for an ETS do not have to be scoreable! Changing the rules in such a major way does not bode well for Science Olympiad in my opinion. (1) It will be difficult to clear up the contradictions and inconsistencies it has caused in a timely manner. (2) It could cause an unfair advantage for those who have just started working on their device under the new rule compared to those who have been working long and hard under the previous rule. It should be obvious to everyone, it is much easier not to have to lift each ball for the ETS. Now, we have to consider whether we should eliminate all or some of our lifts to make more room for more ETSs. I feel we are being penalized for the work we have already done, but giving up 2 points for 50 is worth considering.

[chalker]

The former says all golf balls must start completely below the scoring jug except for the first one and the later suggests the ones used for an ETS do not. Or are you saying they all must start below the jug, but something else about the ETS balls make them non-scoreable? Not starting below the jug would make the balls non-scoreable; is there something else you have in mind?

One other glaring inconsistency is the fact that the rules speak of the jug as a "scoring jug" every time it is mentioned. Was it not the intent of the rules that the balls that enter a scoring jug be a scoreable ball? But now the balls for an ETS do not have to be scoreable! Changing the rules in such a major way does not bode well for Science Olympiad in my opinion. (1) It will be difficult to clear up the contradictions and inconsistencies it has caused in a timely manner. (2) It could cause an unfair advantage for those who have just started working on their device under the new rule compared to those who have been working long and hard under the previous rule. It should be obvious to everyone, it is much easier not to have to lift each ball for the ETS. Now, we have to consider whether we should eliminate all or some of our lifts to make more room for more ETSs. I feel we are being penalized for the work we have already done, but giving up 2 points for 50 is worth considering.

As usual, this is not the place for official comments or clarifications..... I'm still a little confused, but perhaps this will help:

Regarding "Yes, all golf balls must start completely below any of the scoring jugs except for the first golf ball", I think the intent based upon the question was really "all golf balls that are eligible for scoring must start completely below.....".

Regarding "No. Neither the initiating nor the final golf balls need to be scoreable balls in order for an ETS to be eligible for scoring", I think the intent is that for example if the initiating golf ball doesn't end up in a scoring jug, but does initiate an ETS per rule 4.b., that ETS can result in points.

Regarding balls entering a jug being scoreable, there are situations that could occur where a ball moves into the scoring jug, but doesn't result in being eligible for being scored (such as it didn't start below the bottom of the jugs). However if that golf ball is the first step in the ETS sequence that then successfully completes, points should still be given for the ETS.

Said another way, a 'typical' ETS can be abstractly summarized as: ball drops into jug -> things happen -> another ball drops into jug. Typical scoring for that is 2 pts + 50 pts + 2pts. However the rules don't explicitly say that you have to get the 2 pts for the first or second ball to get the 50 pts for the ETS. I think the FAQ response is trying to clarify that point, which isn't a new rule at all.

Does this help clear things up for you? Am I still missing something?

[blakinator8]

Regarding balls entering a jug being scoreable, there are situations that could occur where a ball moves into the scoring jug, but doesn't result in being eligible for being scored (such as it didn't start below the bottom of the jugs). However if that golf ball is the first step in the ETS sequence that then successfully completes, points should still be given for the ETS.

I would argue that the specific scenario you've just described would violate the other FAQ answer posted earlier in the season (emphasis mine):

2014-10-22 08:07 Can objects, other than scoring golf balls, be placed inside of the scoring jugs, provided that they do not alter the inside surface of the jug?
No, objects other than the scoring golf balls may not be inside the scoring jugs. The inside of the scoring jug may not contain any objects, excluding scoring golf balls, throughout the duration of the run.

Any situation where a non-scoring golf ball enters a scoring jug at any time would be against this FAQ, as I read it.

[goodcheer]

As usual, this is not the place for official comments or clarifications..... I'm still a little confused, but perhaps this will help:

Regarding "Yes, all golf balls must start completely below any of the scoring jugs except for the first golf ball", I think the intent based upon the question was really "all golf balls that are eligible for scoring must start completely below.....".

That should be so stated in the answer given to avoid confusion. Thank you for explaining.

Regarding "No. Neither the initiating nor the final golf balls need to be scoreable balls in order for an ETS to be eligible for scoring", I think the intent is that for example if the initiating golf ball doesn't end up in a scoring jug, but does initiate an ETS per rule 4.b., that ETS can result in points.

Regarding balls entering a jug being scoreable, there are situations that could occur where a ball moves into the scoring jug, but doesn't result in being eligible for being scored (such as it didn't start below the bottom of the jugs). However if that golf ball is the first step in the ETS sequence that then successfully completes, points should still be given for the ETS.

Said another way, a 'typical' ETS can be abstractly summarized as: ball drops into jug -> things happen -> another ball drops into jug. Typical scoring for that is 2 pts + 50 pts + 2pts. However the rules don't explicitly say that you have to get the 2 pts for the first or second ball to get the 50 pts for the ETS. I think the FAQ response is trying to clarify that point, which isn't a new rule at all.

Does this help clear things up for you? Am I still missing something?

Thank you for trying to clear this up, but it seems that a complete reversal in a FAQ does constitute a new and different rule to abide by since the FAQs apply to all states and tournaments. The first reading of http://soinc.org/node/1479 said both balls for an ETS must be scoreable, the second reading says no. Making such a major change for whatever reason, has resulted in several contradictions as already pointed out. Further, the example you give above contradicts rule 4.b.6. You say, "if the initiating golf ball doesn't end up in a scoring jug....that ETS can result in points." Rule 4.b.6 says both balls must drop into a scoring jug for the ETS to receive points. Seems like the rule book says one thing and the FAQ something else. Just my opinion, but I think this was an attempt to rewrite the rules to make it easier to score an ETS. I should probably be thankful for the change, except all of our work has been based on reading #1. Sorry, we will just have to work with what we are given. I am concerned for everyone involved in this and hope this discussion helps and not offends. That's all.

[chalker]

I am concerned for everyone involved in this and hope this discussion helps and not offends. That's all.

Please note that there is no offense taken at all, to the contrary, I and others involved in the rules making are grateful for participants that speak up and point out things that might be confusing or in error. This event is very complicated, and we are still very early in the overall SciOly season, so unfortunately there might still be some 'kinks to work out'. I would suggest sending in additional FAQs, since we can only post updates when they are in direct response to something someone submitted.

[Flavorflav]

I'm not sure that I see any contradictions, now that this this has been amended. The rule about golf balls starting lower than the scoring jug relates only to scoring points with golf balls in 4.a which, while called Start Task, is actually all about the 2 points per ball after the second sentence (probably should have started a new bullet for the balls). It does not appear in 4.b, which describes the rules for a scoreable ETS. I, also, had assumed that the golf balls would need to be scoreable, but that is not in fact what the text of the original rule states.

I do, however, see a problem with this FAQ. If only "scoring" golf balls may be in the jug and the starting golf ball cannot be a scoring golf ball bc it does not start below the jug, it would seem that it cannot end up in the jug without violating this rule and therefore cannot initiate an ETS. Is this the intent? And what would be the penalty for other objects ending up in the jug?
My suggested answer: since the rule about nothing being in the jug appears in the section relating to scoring 2 points per ball, the penalty should be to not receive points for scoreable balls if other objects are present in the container. Thoughts?

[Flavorflav]

Judging mission right now, and hardly anybody has jugs. This means no ets. Sad.

[goodcheer]

Judging mission right now, and hardly anybody has jugs. This means no ets. Sad.

What were they using to catch the golf balls?

[Flavorflav]

Solo cups, water bottles, 2 liter soda bottles, yoghurt tubs etc. One of them had built little mini jugs complete with handles out of index cards, which of course are not plastic and never contained a beverage. Lots of appeals, all rejected. We did have a nice little discussion about the definition of the word "handle," though.