Mousetrap Vehicle C

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winneratlife
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Re: Mousetrap Vehicle C

Post by winneratlife »

sean9keenan wrote:
rockhound wrote:
sean9keenan wrote:I could just be insane, but isn't the overall score calculated by multiplying the time in seconds by two? the rules use 15.8 seconds as an example leading to a time score of 31.6.

If your run took 24.394 seconds I'd imagine your run score would be 29.288... But I could be wrong
Regionals 1sec=1pt
States 1sec=2pt
Paradox21 wrote:Time score: 24.394 s
So how did your judges get a time score to the thousandth of a second? Did they film it?
I can't believe I missed that.... and nationals is 1sec = 4 pt...

I can imagine we won't be seeing a lot of negative scores at nationals then...
'Course not, otherwise the event wouldn't be competitive at all...
Top 6 scores would end up like: -10,-9.99, -9.97, -9.93, -9.89, -9.81

Which would end up a .19 difference between 1st and 6th, which would mean the event would end up relying heavily on luck...
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Re: Mousetrap Vehicle C

Post by sean9keenan »

winneratlife wrote: 'Course not, otherwise the event wouldn't be competitive at all...
Top 6 scores would end up like: -10,-9.99, -9.97, -9.93, -9.89, -9.81

Which would end up a .19 difference between 1st and 6th, which would mean the event would end up relying heavily on luck...
I disagree with that statement... Even if the scores are close numerically, the precision of the measurements remains the same no matter the multiplier.

For instance, if the rules said that every meter away from the target equated to one point, and it were still measured to the nearest .1cm the precision would be the same, and scores would be very small, but ultimately there still would be a distinguishable difference in device performance and therefore score.

It becomes luck when the scoring has a ceiling, and many teams get extraordinarily close to this ceiling. It then becomes a question of how close teams _are_ getting to this ceiling. Events like Mousetrap, or Bridge, don't have a "best score" there is always room for improvement, and tradeoffs, lighter vs weight held, speed vs accuracy. Other events like Traj do have a ceiling however, and that's why they add things like the bucket shot to help differentiate teams. Another event of this nature is Mission, and in this event there is an obvious ceiling, and I'd predict that a lot of teams at nationals will hit this ceiling, and that it will go to tiebreakers, and if it's a bad tiebreaker
(ie one that takes the control out of the competitors (wind, human timing, ect)), luck.

Ultimately the 4x multiplier only changes this question of tradeoffs, at nationals it merely becomes more advantageous to have a faster car, and perhaps a less accurate car, however, it's always nice to have both. But that goes for every event. I'd rather have a lighter bridge that can hold more!

But I suppose that's just my opinion...

-Sean Keenan
SoCal Event Supervisor. H2S2O for ever. Competed in Builds & Physics events
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Re: Mousetrap Vehicle C

Post by Flavorflav »

sean9keenan wrote: But I suppose that's just my opinion...
It's mine too, and I suspect a lot of other people's. Well reasoned.
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Re: Mousetrap Vehicle C

Post by winneratlife »

sean9keenan wrote:
winneratlife wrote: 'Course not, otherwise the event wouldn't be competitive at all...
Top 6 scores would end up like: -10,-9.99, -9.97, -9.93, -9.89, -9.81

Which would end up a .19 difference between 1st and 6th, which would mean the event would end up relying heavily on luck...
I disagree with that statement... Even if the scores are close numerically, the precision of the measurements remains the same no matter the multiplier.

For instance, if the rules said that every meter away from the target equated to one point, and it were still measured to the nearest .1cm the precision would be the same, and scores would be very small, but ultimately there still would be a distinguishable difference in device performance and therefore score.

It becomes luck when the scoring has a ceiling, and many teams get extraordinarily close to this ceiling. It then becomes a question of how close teams _are_ getting to this ceiling. Events like Mousetrap, or Bridge, don't have a "best score" there is always room for improvement, and tradeoffs, lighter vs weight held, speed vs accuracy. Other events like Traj do have a ceiling however, and that's why they add things like the bucket shot to help differentiate teams. Another event of this nature is Mission, and in this event there is an obvious ceiling, and I'd predict that a lot of teams at nationals will hit this ceiling, and that it will go to tiebreakers, and if it's a bad tiebreaker
(ie one that takes the control out of the competitors (wind, human timing, ect)), luck.

Ultimately the 4x multiplier only changes this question of tradeoffs, at nationals it merely becomes more advantageous to have a faster car, and perhaps a less accurate car, however, it's always nice to have both. But that goes for every event. I'd rather have a lighter bridge that can hold more!

But I suppose that's just my opinion...

-Sean Keenan
Your logic holds mostly, but my point is: Not every car performs exactly the same every time. in my example, one time a car might get a score -9.5, another time -10. While that may seem a marginal difference, in this example, it would mean the difference between first and not placing. After all, .5 is either 5 mm or an eighth of a second.

Btw: Mousetrap has a ceiling -20, and the tiebreaker ends up as distance score. While this ceiling will NEVER be achieved, there probably is a maximum speed that can be calculated, and so an actual ceiling. However, it then comes down to tiny variations, which is again, luck.
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Re: Mousetrap Vehicle C

Post by OtherWhiteMeat »

Question for those who have been to nationals. Do they time this event using a stopwatch? With one second being worth four points it seems significant to have the correct time for teams that cluster close together. I know that our track coach has told us that the times that get measured off of stopwatches get rounded up by abour 1/5 of a second because they don't trust human reaction time.
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Re: Mousetrap Vehicle C

Post by penclspinner »

OtherWhiteMeat wrote:Question for those who have been to nationals. Do they time this event using a stopwatch? With one second being worth four points it seems significant to have the correct time for teams that cluster close together. I know that our track coach has told us that the times that get measured off of stopwatches get rounded up by abour 1/5 of a second because they don't trust human reaction time.
I would assume they use stopwatches....what else could they use?

I don't know about that rounding up is true though. That seems a bit arbitrary.
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Re: Mousetrap Vehicle C

Post by sean9keenan »

penclspinner wrote:
OtherWhiteMeat wrote:Question for those who have been to nationals. Do they time this event using a stopwatch? With one second being worth four points it seems significant to have the correct time for teams that cluster close together. I know that our track coach has told us that the times that get measured off of stopwatches get rounded up by abour 1/5 of a second because they don't trust human reaction time.
I would assume they use stopwatches....what else could they use?

I don't know about that rounding up is true though. That seems a bit arbitrary.
I don't agree with the rounding up, especially since if you don't round for everyone it ends up being the same, the actual time doesn't matter, as long as it's measured the same for everyone. For swimming they probably introduce that rounding so that they can compare records, or times that are recorded electronically

As for what else they could use at nationals, they could use a camera, even a normal video camera would allow for MUCH more consistent measurements, and it shouldn't be that terribly hard to set up, and it doesn't even need to have a full view of the track, you could just put it at the starting line. That way for most runs you can just use the stopwatches, but if there were to be an issue, you could go back to the footage and figure out who's run was better then another's, without having to resort to tie breakers, or rely on human reaction time. I'd imagine the same idea could also be applied to Mission.

If an event supervisor wanted, I'd bring the camera!
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Re: Mousetrap Vehicle C

Post by fleet130 »

sean9keenan wrote:even a normal video camera would allow for MUCH more consistent measurements
Past experience with using video camera in an event named “Cow-A-Bungee” led to less than satisfactory results.

As I recall, Cow-A-Bubgee was a Physics Committee event, so I was not involved in many of the discussions. Not sure how accurate my memories are, but here's what comes to mind.

Video cameras were used for measuring how close the egg came to the floor. There were several problems inherent in their use.

Many people greatly overestimated event supervisor’s abilities and resources. Many supervisors didn't have knowledge and/or equipment suitable for the task.

Video frame rates allow the egg to drop quite some distance between frames. This led to mistrust of the measurement’s accuracy.

The images of the egg in motion were quite blurred and it was suggested in the rules that a camera with "high speed" function be used. High speed function only decreases "exposure" time, producing sharper images, but does nothing to increase the frame rate. This means the egg can still travel quite some distance between frames.

A major problem was locating the frame where the egg was at its lowest point. Only top-end VCRs had "Jog & Shuttle" or single frame capability. Most supervisors didn’t have a VCR with these functions and the time it took to locate the correct frame was so great, it was nearly impossible to score the event within the tournament time span.

The perceived distance of the egg from the floor is dependent on the geometry of the set-up and many questions were raised as to its accuracy. Eventually someone published a method for making accurate measurements, but its explanation was technical and many key people didn't understand it. By then fairly strong opposition to the event had become entrenched within Science Olympiad's ranks and the event's demise was unavoidable.

I realize most of these problems aren't applicable to the current discussion as today’s objective is to measure time instead of distance. This simplifies the measurement process immensely and brings the time base of the camera and player into question.

Video equipment has progressed from difficult to control/inaccurate mechanical components to totally digital devices whose time accuracy depends solely on its master clock This has increased accuracy of the recording/reproduction process to where time error is negligible for all intents and purposes.

As with Cow-A-Bungee, it could take considerable time to locate the frames necessary to determine the elapsed time from the video. While any given event supervisor/tournament may have the ability and equipment needed, many event supervisors across the country will not. Requiring them to use video could cause serious problems with the event.

Imprinting a visible time stamp on each frame of the video would simplify the measurement process. I'm not aware of any reasonably priced equipment with this capability beyond 1 second resolution. Most video editing software shows individual frame numbers, but it would be awkward and time-consuming to use for many venues.

One suggested solution might be to include a digital timer in the field of view. I'm not sure how well this would work, but it's worth a try. If the frame with the start of the device and the frame with task completion can be located, it should be a simple matter to subtract the start time from the finish time to get the elapsed time.

This leaves the human interface between the camera and actions being recorded. Without including elaborate interface requirements in the rules, how can the camera be sure to capture the actions necessary for an accurate determination of elapsed time.

If the camera’s position is fixed, some actions may be out of the frame (there is no gaurantee the vehicle will remain in a fixed camera’s field of view. If the view is too wide, it may not be possible to determine exactly when actions occur. If the field of view is too narrow, visual cues to approaching actions will not be available. Panning and zooming may also cause some events to be missed altogether. How would parallax error be compensated for?

Much of the feasibility depends on the current event rules, but much more depend on each individual device. It would be necessary for judges to determine a different best course of action on an individual team basis. I see using video cameras as a possibility for individual tournaments, but it’s probably not an option that should be required.

It’s unlikely Science Olympiad would adopt a requirement to use video cameras until/unless data were available to prove their feasability. This means someone would have to use them in a tournament, identify problems with their use and supply solutions to include procedures on their set-up, positioning, lighting, and how to extract elapsed time information from the recorded video. The need is to be able to counter any/all objections that might be raised.
Information expressed here is solely the opinion of the author. Any similarity to that of the management or any official instrument is purely coincidental! Doing Science Olympiad since 1987!
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Re: Mousetrap Vehicle C

Post by rockhound »

I agree that it would be impossible to require the use of video equipment for all competitions, but at Nationals where there is such a likelihood of a cluster of good teams being separated by their time score it seems a good idea to do this at Nationals. 1/2 of a second of 2 pt could make all the difference. This is less likely at the Regional level where it is only worth 1/2 of a point for 1/2 of a second.

As for the camera panning and zooming: I see no need for that because I sounds like most of us are concered about the teams at the top where a fraction of a point could be the difference between 1st and 7th. All of these teams will end very close to the starting line and the only difference besides a few millimeteres might be the time. I see it being like EV last year where the 1st place and 6th place team were within less than 1pt of each other out of a 200 pt max.

Do the people who wrote the rules run the event at Nationals? If would guess they have already thought of these things.
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Re: Mousetrap Vehicle C

Post by fleet130 »

I’m not saying video cameras won’t work, just that you need to be able to assure people they will work. To be able to provide that assurance you need to have done it yourself in a busy tournament environment with more than a few teams, identified problems involved with their use and resolved those problems. There are many instances where people said; “won’t work”, Can’t be done”, only to be proven wrong. I’m inviting you to do so in this case!.

Until you've been there, it's a little hard to internalize the problems. As a national event supervisor, you're faced with several hurdles. You must provide all of your own equipment and supplies to run the event. You have to either accept event volunteer helpers provided by the host institution (people you haven't met until the morning of the event and who are sometimes replaced throughout the day) or provide your own. This means finding people willing/able to take time off work and pay for their own transportation, meals and lodging (or pay for them out of your own pocket).

You must walk into a site you've never seen (except in a 4x6 snapshot or two) until the afternoon before (at best) or sometimes less than an hour before the event starts, get everything set up, and brief your assistants. You have no guarantee anyone will be familiar with the video equipment you provide. Not only must they know how to operate the equipment, but they must understand what needs to be captured and how to consistently do so. They cannot make a mistake, even once! What do you do if someone accidentally walks in front of the camera and obscures the view of the start/stop action?

After you've taken the video, you must be able to process it quickly so the camera is available for the next team. If the data can’t be extracted quickly, you need at least 2 video setups and 2 operators.

Using one measuring method for some teams and a different one for others is unacceptable. Both methods would have to be used for all teams, increasing the number of people and resources required to run the event. Teams would not accept being scored using one method and being ranked, by fractions of a point, below teams scored using a different method.

As I said previously, try it out to discover problems involved and find solutions. That you've never experienced a problem doesn't mean it doesn't exist, just that you haven't seen it. Be sure to consider the problems created by walking into a venue, sight unseen, to conduct an event with people you’ve never met, and who have no skills/knowledge with video equipment or the event.

In regards to top teams having close scores: It's irrelevant that the difference between the first and sixth place teams was only one point (or less). This SHOULD be expected at a national level tournament. It's certainly common in competitions such as the Olympics. One difference between Science Olympiad and the Olympics is that the Olympics has almost unlimited time and funding compared to what’s available in Science Olympiad.

Bringing these types of suggestions up is good. Don't be discouraged by naysayers, but give the rule writers, tournament organizers and event supervisors credit for having considered all the problems and options before reaching their decision. They are in a position to know, better than anyone else, what limiting factors exist.
Information expressed here is solely the opinion of the author. Any similarity to that of the management or any official instrument is purely coincidental! Doing Science Olympiad since 1987!
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