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Re: Battery Buggy B

Posted: April 23rd, 2018, 10:09 am
by shrewdPanther46
MadCow2357 wrote:First, we are going to NATIONALS!! WOOOO!!!!!! Second time in a row!

I am planning to build a completely new 3d printed/carbon fiber battery buggy from scratch. I do have a few questions though (surprise!):

1. How do you make the adjustable steering? I know it would look something like an F1, with a swivel in the middle. However, I am not sure how I would make the swivel. Would I use some kind of bolt and nut to lock it? I feel like the bolt could loosen any moment, and therefore cause the Battery Buggy to swerve weirdly.
2. How do I cut carbon fiber, and how accurate could I cut it?
3. Can I drill into carbon fiber and ABS?
4. Should I keep using my 12V motor, or should I buy a 6V? Pololu has identical 6V and 12V motors, except the voltage, speed, and power are different.

I'm still in the planning phase, so I am open to suggestions.
u can run a threaded rod thru the side, and pinch/pressure it with a wingnut so that car's chassis slightly bends, and this bending can be adjusted with tightening and loosening the wingnut. Im not using adjustable steering on my car so I am just saying its not really necessary, but people have told me it helps a lot.

2,3. Ask people like windu for advice, but I am pretty sure u can avoid the need to cut CF altogether by purchasing precut rods to the size u need.
4. Your choice, I like 6V, but 12v work fine from what i've heard. Its mroe about how much you are worried about weight

Re: Battery Buggy B

Posted: April 23rd, 2018, 11:40 am
by MadCow2357
shrewdPanther46 wrote: u can run a threaded rod thru the side, and pinch/pressure it with a wingnut so that car's chassis slightly bends, and this bending can be adjusted with tightening and loosening the wingnut. Im not using adjustable steering on my car so I am just saying its not really necessary, but people have told me it helps a lot.

I am pretty sure u can avoid the need to cut CF altogether by purchasing precut rods to the size u need.
I still don't understand the concept of the adjustable steering that you described, but I appreciate the input on its necessity this year. I was already leaning towards no steering, since I would be 3D printing all of my stuff this time. Theoretically, the buggy should not drift like it did before since everything will be centered, but I know from experience that things will go wrong. I know you had a problem with drifting or fishtailing before, how did you solve that?

Also, how could I buy precut rods? The sizes I want will be very specific. There is a laser cutting service near me. Could I perhaps ask them to cut my carbon fiber along the with the clear acrylic I will be using for my new towers jig?

Re: Battery Buggy B

Posted: April 23rd, 2018, 11:46 am
by MadCow2357
shrewdPanther46, I am also curious on what your battery buggy looks like. Does it look like a F1 race car (capital "H' rotated 90 degrees), or is the frame a simple rectangular shape. I want to go with the F1 this time, as the coolness factor, in my opinion, is way above the rectangular frame (You know like windu34's 2016 2nd place Electric Vehicle). :o :shock:

Re: Battery Buggy B

Posted: April 23rd, 2018, 1:12 pm
by shrewdPanther46
MadCow2357 wrote:
shrewdPanther46 wrote: u can run a threaded rod thru the side, and pinch/pressure it with a wingnut so that car's chassis slightly bends, and this bending can be adjusted with tightening and loosening the wingnut. Im not using adjustable steering on my car so I am just saying its not really necessary, but people have told me it helps a lot.

I am pretty sure u can avoid the need to cut CF altogether by purchasing precut rods to the size u need.
I still don't understand the concept of the adjustable steering that you described, but I appreciate the input on its necessity this year. I was already leaning towards no steering, since I would be 3D printing all of my stuff this time. Theoretically, the buggy should not drift like it did before since everything will be centered, but I know from experience that things will go wrong. I know you had a problem with drifting or fishtailing before, how did you solve that?

Also, how could I buy precut rods? The sizes I want will be very specific. There is a laser cutting service near me. Could I perhaps ask them to cut my carbon fiber along the with the clear acrylic I will be using for my new towers jig?
I didnt really solve the problem of fishtailing, i experimented until i found the setup with minimal fishtailing (which happened to be the most basic setup) and I'm just running with it. That introduces a lot of problems with distance consistency etc., but i guess its too late now. Another issue for us has been alignment... we aren't able to align consistently within 3 cm from the centerline, and its holding us back a lot.
For your CF, just do whatever works for u lol
MadCow2357 wrote:shrewdPanther46, I am also curious on what your battery buggy looks like. Does it look like a F1 race car (capital "H' rotated 90 degrees), or is the frame a simple rectangular shape. I want to go with the F1 this time, as the coolness factor, in my opinion, is way above the rectangular frame (You know like windu34's 2016 2nd place Electric Vehicle). :o :shock:
We designed it to be an F1 shape, but we didn't do it for coolness purposes. It serves a critical purpose in the functionality of our car. I suggest you worry about function first. Make it to be as cost effective and simple to build as possible. But the F1 shape might reduce some weight for u if thats what you are interested in.

Re: Battery Buggy B

Posted: April 23rd, 2018, 2:34 pm
by cheese
On the question of precut rods, I would advise just buying the long sticks and cutting them down with a hacksaw or bandsaw. It will save you time and money, and will allow you to make changes if needed. I doubt there is anywhere that sells precut CF.

Re: Battery Buggy B

Posted: April 26th, 2018, 8:50 pm
by knightmoves
MadCow2357 wrote:
MadCow2357 wrote:
MadCow2357 wrote: States man. Comp is tomorrow. I should have been done already, but still some last minute things to accomplish.
Last year the brake setting equation for Scrambler was 10 - (0.3 * target distance) = brake setting.
Wondering what the 10 minus thing means, ideas?
An allowance for skidding to a stop?

Re: Battery Buggy B

Posted: April 26th, 2018, 9:54 pm
by windu34
Ill try to answer some questions now that I feel relatively confident for my multi exam
u can run a threaded rod thru the side, and pinch/pressure it with a wingnut so that car's chassis slightly bends, and this bending can be adjusted with tightening and loosening the wingnut. Im not using adjustable steering on my car so I am just saying its not really necessary, but people have told me it helps a lot.
I would personally recommend against this as it is complicated to implement, will add significant weight, isnt all that accurate to adjust, and is very accurate when adjusting.
I would advise just buying the long sticks and cutting them down with a hacksaw or bandsaw
Yes do this, except use a rotary tool like a Dremel or something similar so you dont damage the CF
I want to go with the F1 this time, as the coolness factor, in my opinion, is way above the rectangular frame
This is NOT a good reason to go with this design lol
The correct reasons are as follows:
Benefits: Elimination of chassis torsion and it allows for implementation of passive adjustable steering (as seen on EV 2016)
Cons: Difficult to implement correctly - fit between CF and 3D printed parts MUST be an interference fit or you WILL run into problems (you cant just glue/epoxy the rods in - the fit needs to be so tight that you have to lube the rods and hammer them in.
These pros/cons are not self-evident and i didnt realize them until I struggled with chassis torsion on my 2017 EV which required a complicated solution to solve.
There is a laser cutting service near me
No you cannot do this
How do you make the adjustable steering? I know it would look something like an F1, with a swivel in the middle
DO NOT DO THIS!!! Steering is incredibly sensitive and you will almost certainly lose all of you accuracy of you try to do this (im talking by a factor of at least 5-10)
3. Can I drill into carbon fiber and ABS?
You can, but don't unless you have precision rotary tools (Dremel) and steady hands. Design your parts in CAD with whatever holes are needed.
But in reality, with skid and all that, and curvature, it never quite comes out like that
If you have skid and curvature, you should really try to fix it instead of just accepting it and accounting for it. In both my years in EV, I have known the top 3-4 medalists at nationals and NONE of them were accounting for skid or curvature and everyone was using linear regressions of some sort to determine distance (and steering angle for 2017, although Harriton's system was a bit more complex in that regard).
If you wind your wingnut by spinning the wheels, you can take the distance and divide by the wheel's circuference and get the amount of rotations you need.
This is correct and it should be all you need to get distances all they way up to <2cm. You can also find the circumference of your wheels experimentally if you believe the manufacturer is slightly off due to wear.
See, we only tested in 0.5 meter intervals. If we are to get to 10 cm intervals, we cannot accurately guess with our amount of data (24 runs is not much). I will test some more, I guess.
Yeah this should NOT be necessary. Even for nationals 2017 with the curving bonus, we only used 7 data points (every 0.5m between 9 and 12) and created separate linear regressions between each pair of points due to loss in accuracy due to the curve. Without the curve bonus, we didnt even have data points, just divided by the wheel circumference.

Re: Battery Buggy B

Posted: April 27th, 2018, 6:37 am
by shrewdPanther46
windu34 wrote:If you have skid and curvature, you should really try to fix it instead of just accepting it and accounting for it. In both my years in EV, I have known the top 3-4 medalists at nationals and NONE of them were accounting for skid or curvature and everyone was using linear regressions of some sort to determine distance (and steering angle for 2017, although Harriton's system was a bit more complex in that regard).
We have managed to get rid of basically skid altogether by braking earlier (well atleast we can't see any skid visually or in a blown up video). Our car still fishtails annoyingly towards the end of our runs to the right, and depending on the floor, it is usually between 8-10cm. We have been simply "accounting" for it as you said by angling it 10 cm to the left, and it is pretty consistent on the same floor with good effort for angling (<4 cm from the line usually).

We have tried playing with weight distribution, total car mass, braking speed, braking methods, starting voltage, and as many factors as we could think of, but we were never able to get the car to stop fishtailing so now we are sitting with what we have. Any suggestions regarding how to approach the issue and if it is ok to stick with it? In terms of total distance, we are able to get <5 cm every time on the second run, and we are working it down with alignment practice (i know that sounds kind of dumb, but we aren't using a rifle scope, so it is kinda difficult to align it properly and we need a lot of practice with it). We are also planning on making a regression for alignment distance from the tape over distances. We are also keeping voltage the same so centripetal forces are acting consistently on the wheels particularly during the fishtailing process. Thoughts?

Thanks!

Re: Battery Buggy B

Posted: April 27th, 2018, 6:45 am
by megrimlockawesom
shrewdPanther46 wrote:
windu34 wrote:If you have skid and curvature, you should really try to fix it instead of just accepting it and accounting for it. In both my years in EV, I have known the top 3-4 medalists at nationals and NONE of them were accounting for skid or curvature and everyone was using linear regressions of some sort to determine distance (and steering angle for 2017, although Harriton's system was a bit more complex in that regard).
We have managed to get rid of basically skid altogether by braking earlier (well atleast we can't see any skid visually or in a blown up video). Our car still fishtails annoyingly towards the end of our runs to the right, and depending on the floor, it is usually between 8-10cm. We have been simply "accounting" for it as you said by angling it 10 cm to the left, and it is pretty consistent on the same floor with good effort for angling (<4 cm from the line usually).

We have tried playing with weight distribution, total car mass, braking speed, braking methods, starting voltage, and as many factors as we could think of, but we were never able to get the car to stop fishtailing so now we are sitting with what we have. Any suggestions regarding how to approach the issue and if it is ok to stick with it? In terms of total distance, we are able to get <5 cm every time on the second run, and we are working it down with alignment practice (i know that sounds kind of dumb, but we aren't using a rifle scope, so it is kinda difficult to align it properly and we need a lot of practice with it). We are also planning on making a regression for alignment distance from the tape over distances. We are also keeping voltage the same so centripetal forces are acting consistently on the wheels particularly during the fishtailing process. Thoughts?

Thanks!

Balloons or any kind of tire should eliminate skid

or it might just be a problem with your braking system

Re: Battery Buggy B

Posted: April 27th, 2018, 8:09 am
by windu34
shrewdPanther46 wrote:
windu34 wrote:If you have skid and curvature, you should really try to fix it instead of just accepting it and accounting for it. In both my years in EV, I have known the top 3-4 medalists at nationals and NONE of them were accounting for skid or curvature and everyone was using linear regressions of some sort to determine distance (and steering angle for 2017, although Harriton's system was a bit more complex in that regard).
We have managed to get rid of basically skid altogether by braking earlier (well atleast we can't see any skid visually or in a blown up video). Our car still fishtails annoyingly towards the end of our runs to the right, and depending on the floor, it is usually between 8-10cm. We have been simply "accounting" for it as you said by angling it 10 cm to the left, and it is pretty consistent on the same floor with good effort for angling (<4 cm from the line usually).

We have tried playing with weight distribution, total car mass, braking speed, braking methods, starting voltage, and as many factors as we could think of, but we were never able to get the car to stop fishtailing so now we are sitting with what we have. Any suggestions regarding how to approach the issue and if it is ok to stick with it? In terms of total distance, we are able to get <5 cm every time on the second run, and we are working it down with alignment practice (i know that sounds kind of dumb, but we aren't using a rifle scope, so it is kinda difficult to align it properly and we need a lot of practice with it). We are also planning on making a regression for alignment distance from the tape over distances. We are also keeping voltage the same so centripetal forces are acting consistently on the wheels particularly during the fishtailing process. Thoughts?

Thanks!
What kind of wheels are you using? It sounds like friction force isnt equally distributed either due to poor traction or poorly distributed center of mass. Fish-tailing is usually the result of an underlying oversteer phenomenon https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Understeer_and_oversteer. Also what is the mass of your device currently?
megrimlockawesom wrote: Balloons or any kind of tire should eliminate skid
or it might just be a problem with your braking system
If you have a competitive device going at high speeds (<2.5 seconds), balloons are not nearly sufficient in providing traction,.