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texas wrote:

bhavjain wrote:

texas wrote:These aren't in order, but here's ten competitive states: Texas, New York, Ohio, Illinois, California, Michigan, Pennsylvania, Georgia, Wisconsin, Virginia (or NC, I haven't decided yet).

Isn't NC mostly known for Piedmont?

Yeah, but I couldn't really think of any other states.

Take another look at the scores. Among a field of (iirc) 48 teams, the teams in contention for second place are all generally around 220; aka a bit less competitive to the current Div C teams in New York (adjusting for the larger number of teams and two additional state events in that area, which would likely bring the NY C point scores down to the 220s range, and then readjusting in the opposite direction based on the good, but relatively less good performance of NC B teams at nationals). Piedmont is an anomaly in terms of how they compete nationally, so their unusually low scores can probably be discounted on the basis that if a Div C NY team was doing similarly well (which, adjusting for the better performance of NY Div C teams relative to non-Piedmont NC B teams at nationals, would equate to NY C winning nationals with ~170 points, based on how Piedmont did in 2015) they would also have a similar score (~75, accounting for a slight size difference and more events) at state.

TL;DR - NC B is slightly less competitive than NY C, hence why I ranked NC B at 9th (as East noted above, my original NY C ranking of 3rd was too high).

Is PA C more competitive than PA B?

bhavjain wrote:Is PA C more competitive than PA B?

Almost certainly. PA B teams generally place 10th-20th at Nationals, PA C teams are usually higher (varies based on the year).

As long as I've been involved, PA C has always been the more competitive of the two divisions. A couple theories why this is (probably a combination of the following)

• The constant presence of Harriton, which brings other teams up to their level. Also, if you remove Harriton, the national placements recently are more in line with what the B teams have been placing.
• The high concentration of upper-echelon teams in the SE region, which forces those teams to prepare significantly even at the regional level. This means they're practicing at a higher level for longer than some of the high-level B teams, who may not need to work as hard for regionals.
• There are a lot more C invitationals in the area than B, so those teams get more high-level competition. Before this year, Rustin was the only PA B invite. Tiger is starting a B invite this year, which may help a bit, but there are still many more C invites.

It's also possible the ratio of C:B teams in PA is higher than in other states, but I'd have to check that. Regardless of the reason, I'm still holding out hope for the next top 10 B team, since no PA B team has placed in the top 10 since Sewickley stopped.

EastStroudsburg13 wrote:

• There are a lot more C invitationals in the area than B, so those teams get more high-level competition. Before this year, Rustin was the only PA B invite. Tiger is starting a B invite this year, which may help a bit, but there are still many more C invites.

Interestingly, even though Georgia has historically had more Div C invitationals (on average ~1.8 times as many over the last 10 or so years), over most of that time Div B has been more competitive (even excluding J.C. Booth). I have yet to find an explanation for this; any ideas?

Unome wrote:

EastStroudsburg13 wrote:

• There are a lot more C invitationals in the area than B, so those teams get more high-level competition. Before this year, Rustin was the only PA B invite. Tiger is starting a B invite this year, which may help a bit, but there are still many more C invites.

Interestingly, even though Georgia has historically had more Div C invitationals (on average ~1.8 times as many over the last 10 or so years), over most of that time Div B has been more competitive (even excluding J.C. Booth). I have yet to find an explanation for this; any ideas?

I think a lot of invitationals are to raise money for C division teams. Naturally, C division would know more about C division that B division, so I'm assuming that's why. However I am just guessing here.

Unome wrote:

EastStroudsburg13 wrote:

• There are a lot more C invitationals in the area than B, so those teams get more high-level competition. Before this year, Rustin was the only PA B invite. Tiger is starting a B invite this year, which may help a bit, but there are still many more C invites.

Interestingly, even though Georgia has historically had more Div C invitationals (on average ~1.8 times as many over the last 10 or so years), over most of that time Div B has been more competitive (even excluding J.C. Booth). I have yet to find an explanation for this; any ideas?

The ratio in PA is usually higher. Last year, the only B invite was Rustin. C invites included Stoga, Tiger, Baron, with Athens as well until it was cancelled. Also, NJ and DC both ran a C invite but no B invite, and NY had 4 C invites and 1 B invite. That's a total of 9 C invites and 2 B invites in the vicinity of most of the state. Only in Ohio do you get more of a balance, and that's the one area of the state where B division is more competitive: Shady Side historically places much better in B than C, and no other teams in SW or NW go to many invitationals, if any.

As for the reason why this is; I'm not entirely sure. I believe that fundraising has a part in it, but there has to be some reason it's easier for high school teams to run a tournament. I suppose it's easier to trust high schoolers to volunteer than middle schoolers.

Well any state that is completely filled with Asians should be in the 10 Hardest states list... (*coughcough* California is filled with us *coughcough*)

EastStroudsburg13 wrote:The ratio in PA is usually higher. Last year, the only B invite was Rustin. C invites included Stoga, Tiger, Baron, with Athens as well until it was cancelled. Also, NJ and DC both ran a C invite but no B invite, and NY had 4 C invites and 1 B invite. That's a total of 9 C invites and 2 B invites in the vicinity of most of the state. Only in Ohio do you get more of a balance, and that's the one area of the state where B division is more competitive: Shady Side historically places much better in B than C, and no other teams in SW or NW go to many invitationals, if any.

As for the reason why this is; I'm not entirely sure. I believe that fundraising has a part in it, but there has to be some reason it's easier for high school teams to run a tournament. I suppose it's easier to trust high schoolers to volunteer than middle schoolers.

The Rustin Invitational was created to help our team be able to fund traveling to other invitationals which is similar for most schools running one. We decided to make it a B-Div invitational after seeing the lack of them in PA and that we would then have our entire team available to act as volunteers. Every year we have a waiting list and this year we filled up in under 24 hours. It has been valuable for our team members to act as judges in events that are similar to those they compete in. For example our Fossils students getting to act as judges under Mr. Vorwald (NY's Rocks, Fossils, and Minerals supervisor and a big reason for PJG's and Ward Melville's success) has helped them so much.

It will be good for PA to have the new Little Tiger b-division invitational as an option or alternative to the Rustin Invitational. Also it is my hope that with the Rustin Invitational being over a month sooner this year than normal it will help to push more teams to get stronger sooner. That should help make PA B-div more competitive.

GoldenKnight1 wrote:

EastStroudsburg13 wrote:The ratio in PA is usually higher. Last year, the only B invite was Rustin. C invites included Stoga, Tiger, Baron, with Athens as well until it was cancelled. Also, NJ and DC both ran a C invite but no B invite, and NY had 4 C invites and 1 B invite. That's a total of 9 C invites and 2 B invites in the vicinity of most of the state. Only in Ohio do you get more of a balance, and that's the one area of the state where B division is more competitive: Shady Side historically places much better in B than C, and no other teams in SW or NW go to many invitationals, if any.

As for the reason why this is; I'm not entirely sure. I believe that fundraising has a part in it, but there has to be some reason it's easier for high school teams to run a tournament. I suppose it's easier to trust high schoolers to volunteer than middle schoolers.

The Rustin Invitational was created to help our team be able to fund traveling to other invitationals which is similar for most schools running one. We decided to make it a B-Div invitational after seeing the lack of them in PA and that we would then have our entire team available to act as volunteers. Every year we have a waiting list and this year we filled up in under 24 hours. It has been valuable for our team members to act as judges in events that are similar to those they compete in. For example our Fossils students getting to act as judges under Mr. Vorwald (NY's Rocks, Fossils, and Minerals supervisor and a big reason for PJG's and Ward Melville's success) has helped them so much.

It will be good for PA to have the new Little Tiger b-division invitational as an option or alternative to the Rustin Invitational. Also it is my hope that with the Rustin Invitational being over a month sooner this year than normal it will help to push more teams to get stronger sooner. That should help make PA B-div more competitive.

This sounds exciting