Helicopters B/C [Possible mini SO, Satellite SO Replacement]

[bjt4888]

Michigan state is planning Helicopters for remote tournaments.
And what do yo have against helicopters?

Jeff Anderson
Livonia, MI

Jeff,

Maybe you know this. Will the rules for Helicopters for Michigan Invitationals be released soon? I'm hoping that we use the 2017 rules for coaxial helicopters to make the event accessible to more students.

This would mean specifically disallowing Chinooks. While I like the Chinook, the additional challenges in constructing, and especially the additional challenges for a solo person during winding (a "box" jig is pretty much required for a single person to load the wound motors) might discourage students from trying the event. And, as we know from 2018, a Chinook of that year's rules can fly over 3:30 (coax from 2017 tops is about 2:35).

Also, on another topic, I judged the Belleville, Wisconsin Satellite Wright Stuff event on November 14 (and will be judging Boyceville, WI on 12/5) and the event ran fine.

The 8 teams that participated (probably many more will participate at Boyceville as the 1,2,4,15 Nationals teams are signed-up) all flew in their own gyms and submitted video and electronic copies of logs, checklists, etc. The event director, Andy Hamm, and I wrote a detailed set of procedures to instruct teams on self-judging and proper video angles so that the Event Supervisor could confirm flight times and all key flying rules/bonuses (an adult "local event supervisor" w/ sign-off was required), fill out the Event Checklist and submit via a web tool to a Google drive directory that the Event Supervisor team had access to.

I'm hoping that Michigan will reduce the current Covid positive rate in the near future and maybe this might mean that a Satellite Wright Stuff event for Michigan Regional and State competitions would be possible next March and April. If others are thinking like this, there wouldn't be a need to consider Helicopter for Regionals and States. I like Helicopters fine, I'm just trying to think of a way for the students to fly the Wright Stuff airplanes that they worked so hard on last year.

Yours in SO,

Brian T.

These are my thoughts.

[xiangyu]

Jeff,

Maybe you know this. Will the rules for Helicopters for Michigan Invitationals be released soon? I'm hoping that we use the 2017 rules for coaxial helicopters to make the event accessible to more students.

This would mean specifically disallowing Chinooks. While I like the Chinook, the additional challenges in constructing, and especially the additional challenges for a solo person during winding (a "box" jig is pretty much required for a single person to load the wound motors) might discourage students from trying the event. And, as we know from 2018, a Chinook of that year's rules can fly over 3:30 (coax from 2017 tops is about 2:35).

Also, on another topic, I judged the Belleville, Wisconsin Satellite Wright Stuff event on November 14 (and will be judging Boyceville, WI on 12/5) and the event ran fine.

The 8 teams that participated (probably many more will participate at Boyceville as the 1,2,4,15 Nationals teams are signed-up) all flew in their own gyms and submitted video and electronic copies of logs, checklists, etc. The event director, Andy Hamm, and I wrote a detailed set of procedures to instruct teams on self-judging and proper video angles so that the Event Supervisor could confirm flight times and all key flying rules/bonuses (an adult "local event supervisor" w/ sign-off was required), fill out the Event Checklist and submit via a web tool to a Google drive directory that the Event Supervisor team had access to.

I'm hoping that Michigan will reduce the current Covid positive rate in the near future and maybe this might mean that a Satellite Wright Stuff event for Michigan Regional and State competitions would be possible next March and April. If others are thinking like this, there wouldn't be a need to consider Helicopter for Regionals and States. I like Helicopters fine, I'm just trying to think of a way for the students to fly the Wright Stuff airplanes that they worked so hard on last year.

Yours in SO,

Brian T.

These are my thoughts.

I agree with several points here. The 2017 Helicopter rules should be used as they were fairly easy to get started on and allow enough room for experimentation without overwhelming students. In addition, if the 2018 rules are used, some teams may have an advantage as the then freshmen who are now seniors would have previous experience with the exact 2018 rules.

In terms of Wright Stuff, video chats are fine, but there is the issue of different gym heights that may lead to an unfair advantage for some teams. I feel that the best-case scenario would be to have in-person competitions for build events over several days, which with a significantly less number of people should be much safer. (e,g,: have the build teams of 10 schools come and compete each day spaced out in time periods)

Builds have always been my favorite, and it sucks that most are canceled this year, but it is what it is.

Xiangyu

[bjt4888]

Jeff,

Maybe you know this. Will the rules for Helicopters for Michigan Invitationals be released soon? I'm hoping that we use the 2017 rules for coaxial helicopters to make the event accessible to more students.

This would mean specifically disallowing Chinooks. While I like the Chinook, the additional challenges in constructing, and especially the additional challenges for a solo person during winding (a "box" jig is pretty much required for a single person to load the wound motors) might discourage students from trying the event. And, as we know from 2018, a Chinook of that year's rules can fly over 3:30 (coax from 2017 tops is about 2:35).

Also, on another topic, I judged the Belleville, Wisconsin Satellite Wright Stuff event on November 14 (and will be judging Boyceville, WI on 12/5) and the event ran fine.

The 8 teams that participated (probably many more will participate at Boyceville as the 1,2,4,15 Nationals teams are signed-up) all flew in their own gyms and submitted video and electronic copies of logs, checklists, etc. The event director, Andy Hamm, and I wrote a detailed set of procedures to instruct teams on self-judging and proper video angles so that the Event Supervisor could confirm flight times and all key flying rules/bonuses (an adult "local event supervisor" w/ sign-off was required), fill out the Event Checklist and submit via a web tool to a Google drive directory that the Event Supervisor team had access to.

I'm hoping that Michigan will reduce the current Covid positive rate in the near future and maybe this might mean that a Satellite Wright Stuff event for Michigan Regional and State competitions would be possible next March and April. If others are thinking like this, there wouldn't be a need to consider Helicopter for Regionals and States. I like Helicopters fine, I'm just trying to think of a way for the students to fly the Wright Stuff airplanes that they worked so hard on last year.

Yours in SO,

Brian T.

These are my thoughts.

I agree with several points here. The 2017 Helicopter rules should be used as they were fairly easy to get started on and allow enough room for experimentation without overwhelming students. In addition, if the 2018 rules are used, some teams may have an advantage as the then freshmen who are now seniors would have previous experience with the exact 2018 rules.

In terms of Wright Stuff, video chats are fine, but there is the issue of different gym heights that may lead to an unfair advantage for some teams. I feel that the best-case scenario would be to have in-person competitions for build events over several days, which with a significantly less number of people should be much safer. (e,g,: have the build teams of 10 schools come and compete each day spaced out in time periods)

Builds have always been my favorite, and it sucks that most are canceled this year, but it is what it is.

Xiangyu

Xiangyu,

Agree with you on in-person being best and spacing out to reduce the number of teams in the facility at the same time is a good idea. I didn’t mention in the above, but I created a set of handicapping factors to adjust actual flight times at various ceiling heights to the same “base height”. As my four teams last year had over 500 test flights at many different climb heights, I had a lot of data to use in creating the factors and feel pretty confident that the factors create a pretty fair competition.

Keep up the good work in the builds.

Brian T.

[xiangyu]

Xiangyu,

Agree with you on in-person being best and spacing out to reduce the number of teams in the facility at the same time is a good idea. I didn’t mention in the above, but I created a set of handicapping factors to adjust actual flight times at various ceiling heights to the same “base height”. As my four teams last year had over 500 test flights at many different climb heights, I had a lot of data to use in creating the factors and feel pretty confident that the factors create a pretty fair competition.

Keep up the good work in the builds.

Brian T.

Ahh that's interesting. Looking forward to learning more about those in the future.

[jander14indoor]

Whoops, drop news and then don't check for follow ups. OK, so answers as I know them.
Which helicopter rules will Michigan use. I'd prefer to defer to the official MI website, as my discussions with the state organizers (and of whom I'm one) tend to have interim info that might change. It is currently being discussed as an official event. It will be a previously used set of rules with modifications for remote conditions. I don't think it will be a set with chinook bonus. No guarantee. Since I have to give a coaching session on this next weekend, I hope we have it fairly tied down by then. Oh, and some of the uncertainty is trying to communicate across states to have some degree of consistency for possible use at nationals. Do NOT take that as any kind of confirmation of it being in nationals.

What kind of events will Michigan run. Again, watch the state website. It will of course be dependent on the COVID conditions well before the actual tournament to allow reasonable planning.

Wright Stuff. Well, trust me, I love the event, it is how I got hooked into supporting SO.
- That said, the ability to get into even local gyms is not yet universal, so helicopters was suggested (not by me, but I kind of agree) because it was believed that you can fly it reasonably well in a small low ceiling place.
- Handicapping for ceiling height. One caution, all the data you mention is with conventional motors, right? No torque burners? You will need to consider that as it will mess up your data something fierce in low ceiling sites. However hard torque burners are, your handicapping starts making them much more attractive.
- In person testing. That is going to be out of our control. And setting up over multiple days becomes a logistics burden for the facility only made more significant in these challenging times.

Jeff Anderson
Livonia, MI

[Booknerd]

From my understanding, helicopters have traditionally been made out of balsa. What are thoughts on helicopters that are made out of material that isn't balsa? (ie. paper, straws, toothpicks, other random household items.) Heli isn't being run at every single competition we're going to, so I don't want to make a huge investment towards one. I don't think there's a rule violation for using materials other than balsa, but could it be problematic, given that a heli is traditionally made from balsa wood?

[Rossyspsce]

From my understanding, helicopters have traditionally been made out of balsa. What are thoughts on helicopters that are made out of material that isn't balsa? (ie. paper, straws, toothpicks, other random household items.) Heli isn't being run at every single competition we're going to, so I don't want to make a huge investment towards one. I don't think there's a rule violation for using materials other than balsa, but could it be problematic, given that a heli is traditionally made from balsa wood?

i don’t have a copy of the rules with me but iirc the only restriction on build material is no use of prelaminated surfaces and no boron filaments

[sciolyperson1]

From my understanding, helicopters have traditionally been made out of balsa. What are thoughts on helicopters that are made out of material that isn't balsa? (ie. paper, straws, toothpicks, other random household items.) Heli isn't being run at every single competition we're going to, so I don't want to make a huge investment towards one. I don't think there's a rule violation for using materials other than balsa, but could it be problematic, given that a heli is traditionally made from balsa wood?

There is no rule violation for balsa wood. However, I can't think of any material that would perform nearly as well as balsa wood designs for these events + boomilever.

If you are having trouble buying materials, J/H aerospace sells helicopter kits that may help you out and get started.

[Booknerd]

Ok great, thank you!

[vehicleguy]

I have a lot of experience with wright stuff but none with helicopters. I know when I did wright stuff you can pretty much trim the same plane over and over again without really building a new one (unless you optimize it), but is this the same for helicopters? It seems like the main variable are the rotors (besides rubber band and winding), and I don't see how one can really change them without completely rebuilding them. Basically, I'm asking if this event is as trim heavy as wright stuff for adjustments, or instead of trimming, does it usually require rebuilding?