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PEOPLE TO HELP WITH TIMING.....

For timing you need at least three additional people: One to time of the entire device run; another one to time the bonus timer for rule 4.g.i.; and another one to time any delay in electrical or spring timers to account for penalties. Remember to ask if they will have a bonus timer and which one it is. Electricity is allowed for a few actions and you need to pay attention to how long do each last.

For example, let's say a student device has a sand funnel to count for bonus timer points; it has an electrical gadget to break the string as action (xi); and it has an electrical sensor that sets off something else when temperature drops as action (ii); HELPER ONE will have to time the entire run from start to final. HELPER TWO will have to start his or her timer when the sand starts flowing and stop when the next task gets triggered by this sand OR when the timer from Helper one reaches the target time (Which ever comes first). (Rule 4.g.i) This is because the bonus points will not count AFTER device operation time. HELPER THREE will start his or her timer when action (ix) starts and stop it when the next task gets triggered and quickly see if it took over 10 seconds. HELPER THREE will again have to start the timer when action (ii) starts and stop it when it triggers the next action and quickly see if it took over 10 seconds. After the run, HELPER ONE provides you with the device running time; HELPER TWO provides you with the bonus timer time; and HELPER THREE provides you how many electrical or spring timing penalties (or how many times it went beyond 10 seconds.

Using this same example above, let's say that the target time was 60 seconds. HELPER ONE measured 70 seconds. Let's assume that the sand funnel started 20 seconds into the run, so HELPER TWO started the timer when HELPER ONE's timer was 20 seconds into the run but the sand went for another 45 seconds. HELPER TWO has to stop her timer when HELPER ONE's timer was 60 and her timer should read 40 instead of 45. Then let's say that action (ix) started 2 seconds into the run and ended 15 seconds into the run thus HELPER THREE reads 13 seconds in his or her timer. Let's say that action action (ii) started immediately after the funnel at 65 seconds but only lasted for 3 seconds. HELPER THREE's timer should read about 3 seconds. In this scenario HELPER ONE will provide the ES the timing of 70 seconds; HELPER TWO will provide the ES the bonus time of 40 seconds; HELPER THREE will tell the ES that action (ix) lasted more than 10 seconds and thus incurs a penalty. In the spreadsheet, the ES will enter the device operation time for 70 seconds (for which the spreadsheet will calculate 2*70-10 as the time points; the bonus timer as 40 seconds for which the spreadsheet will award those 40 points as bonus; and a one penalty under the electrical timer column because one of the times went beyond 10 seconds.

I don't see any other way to do this and remain the most accurate and fair without at least three people timing.

Reference rules for the above example:
3.g. Use of electricity is limited to Scorable Actions ii., v., xi. and raising the Final Action platform

4.g.i.: A 1-point bonus will be awarded for every full second the timer operates before the Target Operation Time. The timer must run for at least 30 seconds to earn points. The timer may run past the Target Operation Time but will not receive points for the duration after the Target Operation Time.

6.d.: Deduct 150 points for each:
6.d.i. electrical or spring timing action in the device that takes longer than 10.0 seconds, except raising the Final Action platform
6.d.ii. action where electricity is used where it is not allowed. The action will also not count for points.

Scorable Action (ii): Use an endothermic action that initiates the next action as a result of the reduction in temperature.

Scorable Action (xi): Use electricity to directly or indirectly break a string or fishing line so that the breaking of the line initiates the next action.

Unome wrote:I'll be running this event at a tournament in a few weeks. Anything I should know? Recommendations? I'm expecting one other person for timing, and likely a rate of around 6 teams per hour.

I would recommend you to use more people for timing. Read my post for timing.

trdd wrote:PEOPLE TO HELP WITH TIMING.....

For timing you need at least three additional people: One to time of the entire device run; another one to time the bonus timer for rule 4.g.i.; and another one to time any delay in electrical or spring timers to account for penalties. Remember to ask if they will have a bonus timer and which one it is. Electricity is allowed for a few actions and you need to pay attention to how long do each last.

For example, let's say a student device has a sand funnel to count for bonus timer points; it has an electrical gadget to break the string as action (xi); and it has an electrical sensor that sets off something else when temperature drops as action (ii); HELPER ONE will have to time the entire run from start to final. HELPER TWO will have to start his or her timer when the sand starts flowing and stop when the next task gets triggered by this sand OR when the timer from Helper one reaches the target time (Which ever comes first). (Rule 4.g.i) This is because the bonus points will not count AFTER device operation time. HELPER THREE will start his or her timer when action (ix) starts and stop it when the next task gets triggered and quickly see if it took over 10 seconds. HELPER THREE will again have to start the timer when action (ii) starts and stop it when it triggers the next action and quickly see if it took over 10 seconds. After the run, HELPER ONE provides you with the device running time; HELPER TWO provides you with the bonus timer time; and HELPER THREE provides you how many electrical or spring timing penalties (or how many times it went beyond 10 seconds.

Using this same example above, let's say that the target time was 60 seconds. HELPER ONE measured 70 seconds. Let's assume that the sand funnel started 20 seconds into the run, so HELPER TWO started the timer when HELPER ONE's timer was 20 seconds into the run but the sand went for another 45 seconds. HELPER TWO has to stop her timer when HELPER ONE's timer was 60 and her timer should read 40 instead of 45. Then let's say that action (ix) started 2 seconds into the run and ended 15 seconds into the run thus HELPER THREE reads 13 seconds in his or her timer. Let's say that action action (ii) started immediately after the funnel at 65 seconds but only lasted for 3 seconds. HELPER THREE's timer should read about 3 seconds. In this scenario HELPER ONE will provide the ES the timing of 70 seconds; HELPER TWO will provide the ES the bonus time of 40 seconds; HELPER THREE will tell the ES that action (ix) lasted more than 10 seconds and thus incurs a penalty. In the spreadsheet, the ES will enter the device operation time for 70 seconds (for which the spreadsheet will calculate 2*70-10 as the time points; the bonus timer as 40 seconds for which the spreadsheet will award those 40 points as bonus; and a one penalty under the electrical timer column because one of the times went beyond 10 seconds.

I don't see any other way to do this and remain the most accurate and fair without at least three people timing.

Reference rules for the above example:
3.g. Use of electricity is limited to Scorable Actions ii., v., xi. and raising the Final Action platform

4.g.i.: A 1-point bonus will be awarded for every full second the timer operates before the Target Operation Time. The timer must run for at least 30 seconds to earn points. The timer may run past the Target Operation Time but will not receive points for the duration after the Target Operation Time.

6.d.: Deduct 150 points for each:
6.d.i. electrical or spring timing action in the device that takes longer than 10.0 seconds, except raising the Final Action platform
6.d.ii. action where electricity is used where it is not allowed. The action will also not count for points.

Scorable Action (ii): Use an endothermic action that initiates the next action as a result of the reduction in temperature.

Scorable Action (xi): Use electricity to directly or indirectly break a string or fishing line so that the breaking of the line initiates the next action.

I considered this to some extent. I would have the one timing assistant do the main device timing, and record a lap every time an electrical/spring action starts or ends, which can be reviewed retroactively to determine if any of the electrical/spring actions lasted more than 10 seconds. I would time the timer bonus, since I'm not exactly going to be watching anything else while the timer is running, and would have the assistant announce when their timer reaches the target time so I can stop my timer.

The only possible problem I can think of is in the case of parallel/dead-end paths, although presumably most of those would be caught in the ASL or when asking the team to quickly explain their device path before running.

Question - if a later action starts while the designated timer is running, would the timer for that be stopped?

When judging, especially at the Invitational level, I always go by what ever is further down their transfer sheet is what I go by. So if it jumps to a later step, I will start awarding points from that step and nothing in between that does not occur.

I've heard recommendations to require impound even if running the target time at the regional level. Does anyone here have any thoughts on that?

Related - if no impound, when would teams submit ASLs?

Unome wrote:I've heard recommendations to require impound even if running the target time at the regional level. Does anyone here have any thoughts on that?

Related - if no impound, when would teams submit ASLs?

I wouldn't impound - it adds logistical complications and teams may not have designed their devices to work well with impound. They would provide their ASLs at check-in.

nicholasmaurer wrote:

Unome wrote:I've heard recommendations to require impound even if running the target time at the regional level. Does anyone here have any thoughts on that?

Related - if no impound, when would teams submit ASLs?

I wouldn't impound - it adds logistical complications and teams may not have designed their devices to work well with impound. They would provide their ASLs at check-in.

Perhaps true for the teams and tournament directors, but impounds can tremendously help the event supervisor by doing preliminary safety checks and asking students if they have any questions. Unome, it's probably best you contact your directors and see what they will allow.

You can also ask your tournament directors to have teams submit ASLs to you the night before the tournament by email. I doubt this is common, as my director only allowed it once long ago, but it was incredibly helpful. You can make notes regarding questionable actions, check for formatting and typos, and begin filling out scoresheets the night before the tournament. It really speeds things up on the day.

Impounding can be helpful for the reasons stated above, however, three things to keep in mind. One, only impound if you have enough space. If this is a large Invitational with 60 teams, you will need a lot of room to impound. Two, make sure you have at least one or two people to guard impound. If you are impounding, you must have folks who can watch the area and to protect the projects. I've seen where folks will try to sneak into impound areas to take pictures of devices. Lastly, be prepared for some push back because the rules state that this is an Impound event only at the State and National level. You'll have folks give you grief if you impound at an Invitational.

Northridge wrote:Impounding can be helpful for the reasons stated above, however, three things to keep in mind. One, only impound if you have enough space. If this is a large Invitational with 60 teams, you will need a lot of room to impound. Two, make sure you have at least one or two people to guard impound. If you are impounding, you must have folks who can watch the area and to protect the projects. I've seen where folks will try to sneak into impound areas to take pictures of devices. Lastly, be prepared for some push back because the rules state that this is an Impound event only at the State and National level. You'll have folks give you grief if you impound at an Invitational.

I'd be especially concerned about objections from teams who rely on NOT having impound for their device to be successful. For example, I've seen many devices which require hot or cold water. Without impound, teams can simply bring this with them to their time slots. With impound, they need a method for keeping it at the appropriate temperature all day.

nicholasmaurer wrote:

Northridge wrote:Impounding can be helpful for the reasons stated above, however, three things to keep in mind. One, only impound if you have enough space. If this is a large Invitational with 60 teams, you will need a lot of room to impound. Two, make sure you have at least one or two people to guard impound. If you are impounding, you must have folks who can watch the area and to protect the projects. I've seen where folks will try to sneak into impound areas to take pictures of devices. Lastly, be prepared for some push back because the rules state that this is an Impound event only at the State and National level. You'll have folks give you grief if you impound at an Invitational.

I'd be especially concerned about objections from teams who rely on NOT having impound for their device to be successful. For example, I've seen many devices which require hot or cold water. Without impound, teams can simply bring this with them to their time slots. With impound, they need a method for keeping it at the appropriate temperature all day.

I would agree with that as well. I personally have never impounded at an Invitational. Even if I wanted to, and even if I allowed folks to get get water or ice before they ran, I have never been to an Invitational where I would have enough folks to keep an eye on Impound. As is, it is usually difficult enough to have enough timers.