Wright Stuff C

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xiangyu
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Re: Wright Stuff C

Post by xiangyu »

lechassin wrote: January 25th, 2020, 4:39 pm Xiangyu,

Thanks for the kudos. Luke called from the return bus: he got 1st in class and 1st overall for WS and 1st in class/2nd overall for Boomilever. He did not know by what margins or how much others may have held back, but he seemed happy. He also seemed satisfied with the rest of his team, there was even some talk that they might get to State. We'll have to wait and see, of course.

1'30" is great, especially if your ceiling is 25' or less with HVAC running. It's what we still get on many flights so you're not far off. Any flight we get above 1'50" involves some element of luck so I don't think of those as reproducible (yet). Are you running two blades or three?
Mr. Chassin,

I just started running 3 and after many tweaks I'm able to get the prop running much more smoothly. Thanks for all your help with the propeller. I'm going to try doing a flight with my new (tweaked) 3 blade on my mono plane and see what happens tomorrow, hopefully that'll yield a higher time for the proven mono plane so I know that I just need to trim the CG and rubber for my new bi plane.

Speaking of propellers, how do I know if the flare I'm applying is actually working or not? How do I know if it's helping the flight?

Xiangyu
Medal & Ribbon Count: 33
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Re: Wright Stuff C

Post by lechassin »

xiangyu wrote: January 25th, 2020, 4:51 pm how do I know if the flare I'm applying is actually working or not?
I don't know how others do it, but we adopted flaring props to solve power stalling and excessive de-winding. The problems went away with no other changes, so we knew it worked.

So far our best blades are cut from 0.011" thick Propel water bottles. We know 0.012" from a Yogurt pot didn't flare at all because when we moved the blades' spars from the middle of the blade to the trailing edge, nothing changed. We know 0.010" from a Pepsi bottle is too thin because it vibrated so badly under full power that we thought the prop or the plane would come apart, and we never flew it.

When you switch to flaring props, you will gain about ten seconds because the motor won't spin down as fast under high torque. It's a win-win. Our "identical" props behave slightly differently so anticipate some variability.

Here are Luke's flights from today, it turns out the big rafter is only 19 feet, so I'm especially pleased.

Nice flight to the left, 1'47":
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=29lGPAdD7Kg
I would've added a little rudder to remove the bobbling during climb and tighten the turn a bit, but overall very nice.

Lucky flight to the right 1'38"(partial video, too close to obstacles):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z6fyoiOAHaI
Luke says the plane drifted to that side of the room, we're not sure why.
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Re: Wright Stuff C

Post by mchoi595 »

I had a couple questions (I'm still new to wright stuff)

1. How much would warp in the wings affect flight time? Should I try to correct the warp?
2. is making a custom propeller better than the ikara propellers provided in kits?
Thank you for any responses.
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Re: Wright Stuff C

Post by lechassin »

Mchoi595:

This year the tiny inefficient prop will really emphasize any deficiencies in the rest of the plane. We believe the drag from any warp, intentional or not, is going to be costly. You can trim a warped plane to compensate but the extra drag will matter. Also, trimming a straight plane to fly one way is hard enough, let alone a warped plane that has to fly both ways. We made a video a ways back on how to prevent warps and eliminate them if they occur:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fqAXTjMOl8U
If your wings are all wood, you can eliminate small warps by tweaking the leading/trailing edges, but for us that only works on wings that started straight and got mild warps from humidity, repairs, etc...

It's late enough in this season without much of other people's data, so while I can't say for sure, I will propose that this year, a custom three-bladed prop with relatively large blades is unbeatable, all else being equal. I emphasize the last bit because there's no way we are winning nationals, but with more knowledge and better rubber techniques, I think our prop would easily prevail. For example, yesterday's 1'47" flight was with a conservative 4140 turns. Our motors can hold 5500 but they occasionally break even as we get near 5000, so we won't try unless we get under the 98' ceiling at State. We'd probably teach a team mate to wind a back-up motor simultaneously. It's reasonable to hope we'd already be over 2 minutes if we put in those extra knots.

Here's exactly how to make a three-bladed prop:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vmB4-4IBuXU


If your team has F1D caliber people involved, none of this will apply: warp the wings as needed, tweak a two-bladed prop, strip your custom rubber on the spot, win trophy. For the rest of us: build a straight plane that changes directions with simple, reliable adjustments that are easily incorporated into the 8 minute flight window by a novice. Luke uses only a wing shim and a rudder tab to change directions. He takes about 10 seconds to make those adjustments, and just as important, he can use just those two parameters and launch torque to troubleshoot most unforeseen problems. We know that a slight CG adjustment and offset wings help too, but we are skipping that for now to keep things simple and sturdy.
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Re: Wright Stuff C

Post by lechassin »

https://app.avogadro.ws/il/palatine-inv ... s/event/22

This link for results from last Fall is understandably dead, but is there something equivalent for yesterday's invitational at Crystal Lake Central High School (Illinois)?

Edit, got it: https://app.avogadro.ws/il/crystal-lake ... ts/overall

I don't really know what to make of it because there are no raw scores and it looks like some of the competitive local schools didn't participate. It does look like we could improve our chances of going to State if I offered to coach the ping pong ball and the car events. I wouldn't normally but it sure would be nice to get under that 98' ceiling! Luke says we'd need to be in the top 1/3, and it looks like were near 50th percentile. I really should have read the rules better when we started, I thought individual events advanced, not whole teams (stupid, in retrospect)

And looking at some of the other topics/scores, it seems hopeless :(.
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Re: Wright Stuff C

Post by bxt72 »

This might be completely off-topic, but is there any word on if it will be Wright stuff/electric WS/helicopters for div C 2021? I really hope it is; I've been looking forward to it.
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Re: Wright Stuff C

Post by CrayolaCrayon »

bxt72 wrote: January 26th, 2020, 11:35 am This might be completely off-topic, but is there any word on if it will be Wright stuff/electric WS/helicopters for div C 2021? I really hope it is; I've been looking forward to it.
Drafts have WS for the 20-21 season
MIT '25
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BirdSO Wright Stuff ES '22
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Re: Wright Stuff C

Post by coachchuckaahs »

lechassin wrote: January 26th, 2020, 9:15 am https://app.avogadro.ws/il/palatine-inv ... s/event/22

This link for results from last Fall is understandably dead, but is there something equivalent for yesterday's invitational at Crystal Lake Central High School (Illinois)?

Edit, got it: https://app.avogadro.ws/il/crystal-lake ... ts/overall

I don't really know what to make of it because there are no raw scores and it looks like some of the competitive local schools didn't participate. It does look like we could improve our chances of going to State if I offered to coach the ping pong ball and the car events. I wouldn't normally but it sure would be nice to get under that 98' ceiling! Luke says we'd need to be in the top 1/3, and it looks like were near 50th percentile. I really should have read the rules better when we started, I thought individual events advanced, not whole teams (stupid, in retrospect)

And looking at some of the other topics/scores, it seems hopeless :(.
Generally in the past SO has frowned upon release of raw scores, so not surprising that this only includes the tabulated placement scores.

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Nationals Results:
2016 C WS 8th place
2018 B WS 2nd place
2018 C Heli Champion
2019 B ELG 3rd place
2019 C WS Champion
AMA Results: 3 AAHS members qualify for US Jr Team in F1D, 4 new youth senior records
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Re: Wright Stuff C

Post by coachchuckaahs »

lechassin wrote: January 26th, 2020, 6:43 am Mchoi595:


If your team has F1D caliber people involved, none of this will apply: warp the wings as needed, tweak a two-bladed prop, strip your custom rubber on the spot, win trophy. For the rest of us: build a straight plane that changes directions with simple, reliable adjustments that are easily incorporated into the 8 minute flight window by a novice. Luke uses only a wing shim and a rudder tab to change directions. He takes about 10 seconds to make those adjustments, and just as important, he can use just those two parameters and launch torque to troubleshoot most unforeseen problems. We know that a slight CG adjustment and offset wings help too, but we are skipping that for now to keep things simple and sturdy.
I don' t think that our F1D experience, as great as it has been, has much influence on SO. The primary influence is lack of time for SO, since an F1D build is about 60 hours! The planes and flying characteristics are so different, not a lot spills over. And remember, the two younger girls were first year SO competitors last season, so this has all been a rapid turnaround. But we only have about 60 flights on the books so far this year, we should be around 200-300 by this time.

You hit the nail perfectly in terms of importance of a straight, repeatable plane with easy, repeatable adjustments (did I repeat repeatable?). Basic trim of the plane is critical, and this year's planes are walking a fine line. Other years there was more latitude in CG vs. incidence, not so much this year. Anything flexing or warping can throw off a decent plane one week to no good the following week. the carbon spars help in this regard. Having good notebooks is more critical than ever.

Once a plane is basically trimmed, it is once again, as always in WS, matching prop, rubber, and conditions. For your particular motor stick and rubber selection, this has benefited certainly form the three-blade props.Another hidden benefit has cropped up for us. the small prop turns very fast, and centrifugal accelerations can overcome are-driven flaring and you may get prop motions that are not planned (reverse flaring, for example). A multi-blade prop will turn slower, which can help mitigate these unwanted inertial loads.

I do not think F1D experience negates the need to learn your plane, practice, test, practice, log, and practice. We have not even cut any rubber yet this year, we are using rubber form various prior years over a range of half and 1/3 rubber widths while we learn the idiosyncrasies of the plane. We have built about 15 props so far. Many have not performed at all, but all of them teach us something.

With the changing, and sometimes very difficult, rules each year, WS is different than any AMA competition. In most competitions, you can build on a cookbook of experience of other flyers over years of stable rules. In WS, especially this year, it is all about learning from scratch as fast as you can. then finding a rubber/prop combination that optimizes results.

BTW, with your flaring prop successes, you actually have a leg up on other teams in a LOW ceiling. Going to a high ceiling, any stiff prop will work, and it negates the findings you have on flaring props to some extent.

Congrats to Luke on his success! And, yes, SO is a team event. I have to keep reminding my kids, if you want to go to Nationals, you need to excel in all of your events!

Coach Chuck
Coach, Albuquerque Area Home Schoolers Flying Events
Nationals Results:
2016 C WS 8th place
2018 B WS 2nd place
2018 C Heli Champion
2019 B ELG 3rd place
2019 C WS Champion
AMA Results: 3 AAHS members qualify for US Jr Team in F1D, 4 new youth senior records
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Re: Wright Stuff C

Post by Little-Acorn »

andrewwski wrote: September 3rd, 2019, 11:40 am Been waiting for biplanes to come back! This should be fun, especially with changing the direction pretty much being required to be competitive.
I guess biplane usually means two wings, one above the other.

Can it also mean two stabilizers, one above the other? That would be VERY useful.

After all, the Wright Brothers' plane had biplane wings AND biplane stabilizers, n'est-ce pas?
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