Mission Possible C

[sciencecoach]

Hi,

We are having a tough time coming up with a task that converts EM to chemical. Almost everything the students can think of has been EM to Electrical and then to chemical.
Can someone please give an example of how this can be accomplished.

[jgensel]

If you were to take a match and light it as an action, could you count it as mechanical to thermal to chemical to thermal? Because by striking the match mechanically, you generate heat (thermal). That heat allows the phosphorus lining of the match to chemically combust (chemical), and making a flame. The flame then burns fishing line or something (thermal). Is this an allowed series of transfers?

Here's a semi-rhetorical question: do you think it's within the spirit of the competition to allow something as simple as striking a match to potentially count for 3 energy transfers (i.e. be worth 90 out of a total of 300 points possible for energy transfers)?

The rules state that all transfers must be a direct transfer so yes I believe that a match can count for 3 energy transfers since they are all direct.

[chalker]

I would second that sentiment. I will have to disagree with C. Chalker, there can be no "spirit of the rules" - it is either allowed by the rules or it is not.

General rules #1 and #2 codify the 'spirit of the rules':
#1: Teams may not interpret the rules so that they have an unfair advantage over the rules or another team.
#2: Unless otherwise stated, if writing utensils, notes, resources, calculators, actions, etc., are not excluded, they are permitted unless they violate the spirit of the problem.

P.S. - I'm not C. Chalker - she isn't active on SciOly. I'm A. Chalker. Chalker7 is M. Chalker.

[chalker]

The rules state that all transfers must be a direct transfer so yes I believe that a match can count for 3 energy transfers since they are all direct.

I was trying to stay away from citing explicit rules, but if you want to nitpick regarding 'direct transfers', how would you reconcile that stance with rule 3.e. that says devices such as small rocket igniters receive points by the way they cause the next action? A match is essentially a small rocket igniter.

[chalker]

Hi,

We are having a tough time coming up with a task that converts EM to chemical. Almost everything the students can think of has been EM to Electrical and then to chemical.
Can someone please give an example of how this can be accomplished.

Not all energy transfers are possible within the constraints of the event rules, nor are they needed to get max points.

[olympiaddict]

If I understand correctly, a rocket igniter creates heat from electrical current through joule heating. It goes from electrical to thermal but does nothing in between. A match goes through chemical first- how is it essentially a small rocket igniter?

Also, that rule 3.e says batteries may count for transfers but an FAQ ruled that out.

[chalker]

If I understand correctly, a rocket igniter creates heat from electrical current through joule heating. It goes from electrical to thermal but does nothing in between. A match goes through chemical first- how is it essentially a small rocket igniter?

Also, that rule 3.e says batteries may count for transfers but an FAQ ruled that out.

Sigh...please keep in mind I'm trying to be helpful here, but in no way should this be viewed as an official comment or clarification as always. I think a lot of people are 'missing the forest for the trees' regarding this entire situation of energy transfers and what constitutes an action.

But since we're nitpicking.. I'll nitpick. Another name for a rocket igniter is an 'electric match' (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_match). From wikipedia:

"Electric matches consist of two parts, a bridgewire and a pyrogen. The bridgewire is a heating element, typically in the form of a loop or coil of thin wire, which is encased in the pyrogen, which is a quantity of readily ignited pyrotechnic initiator composition.....igniters for solid fuel model rocket motors often include powdered metals, which provide more heat and duration to the match flame"

Thus, by some of the logic I've seen on this thread, some of you might think an electric match could consist of a E -> T -> C -> T series of energy transfers.

However, taking a step back and looking at the rules as a whole, my opinion is that a random person off the street looking at such a device and being given a high-level overview of the rules would say it's a single action - hence can be counted as only a single energy transfer.

Yes, the rules are a little vague on this whole issue, and depending upon the questions that we receive online we might issue a public FAQ about this. However my general advice is to err on the side of caution - use a 'lay person' interpretation of what an action and energy transfer might be. Don't risk losing a whole bunch of points or being tiered due to trying to push the interpretation of the rules. You might get away with it at regionals, but as you move up in the competition levels you'll be far less likely to convince a seasoned event supervisor.

[olympiaddict]

sorry if I seem antagonizing, that's not my intention, and that clears up what I didn't know about rocket igniters- I see the similarity. thanks.

and we're doing our best to design our device to essentially never confront the black box rule- just avoid anything questionable. I see decent arguments coming out of the "single action" rule despite vagueness, so we're working around that. But at the same time, the question I really have is where to draw the line for where you can score the "single" transfer of input - > output, and where it's not direct. I guess I interpreted the inclusion of the word "direct" as a way to prevent this exact argument. Other than that I've essentially put this to bed in my mind, and I won't be trying to score "extra" transfers.

[scramblingman]

Another question. Are we not allowed to use voltaic cells that produce less than 10V because we have to use commercially made batteries? If so, any chemical -> electrical transfer would not be allowed, which seems a little unfair.

[chalker]

Another question. Are we not allowed to use voltaic cells that produce less than 10V because we have to use commercially made batteries? If so, any chemical -> electrical transfer would not be allowed, which seems a little unfair.

You might want to look closely at the wording of this faq: http://www.soinc.org/node/1328