Mission Possible C

[olympiaddict]

I disagree. The rules state a transfer must transfer DIRECTLY from one form to another to score points. However a lightbulb only creates light through incandescence, which is a result of the filament reaching a high temperature. This seems clearly to me to be going through Thermal. whether or not you get points for the Thermal or not is a whole different discussion, but I don't think you can get points for E-EMS: how is that a direct transfer?

[SWAnG]

I submitted a national FAQ about these questions, "What constitutes a similar container to the starting device? Can there be modifications to the container (ie, a hole for a pulley wire, or a hole so things may fall out of), or would it then not be considered similar?". I got a response, saying that the answer had been posted on the national site, go to soinc.org, etc. Though it has not been posted, and I got an email about it.

Check here: http://www.soinc.org/node/1332

Could someone please help me understand how this relates to the similar container case? This simply defines what a container is does it not? The real question is about "similarity". If i poke a hole in one container, do i have to poke a hole in all the other containers in the same spot? Do the containers have to be the same dimensions? etc.

[SWAnG]

I completely agree with allowing electronics. Though some may complain about the time they spent on working their way around the rule, it simply means they're ahead of the rest. Those who are just starting building and everyone else will benefit from this, hours put in don't go to waste, and like everything in mission possible, there are going to be changes all the time as you get new ideas anyways. This rule allows people to focus more on the actually ingenuity and craftiness of creating their pathways, and not having to worry about circuit components. It helps competitors focus more on the actual purpose of the event, then working around a rule.

[Phys1cs]

I disagree. The rules state a transfer must transfer DIRECTLY from one form to another to score points. However a lightbulb only creates light through incandescence, which is a result of the filament reaching a high temperature. This seems clearly to me to be going through Thermal. whether or not you get points for the Thermal or not is a whole different discussion, but I don't think you can get points for E-EMS: how is that a direct transfer?

I believe this is where the "Black Box Rule" was intended to be, although not a rule this year. You put in electricity, and at the end, out comes ems. You can only count one step as one energy transfer, as for that one rule this year (I don't have a rules sheet in front of me to find exactly where)

[olympiaddict]

Yeah, but since there is zero evidence of the black box rule in the manual, I'm not convinced that it exists.

[Flavorflav]

Yeah, but since there is zero evidence of the black box rule in the manual, I'm not convinced that it exists.

Good luck with that.

[JTMess]

Had anyone succeeded in achieving an EM to mechanical or an EM to chemical transfer? UV catalysis and lasers, the two examples in the summer institute PowerPoint, are clearly banned this year...

[Flavorflav]

I do appreciate all the input so far, however one general comment: as I indicated in my initial question, we are looking at the overall benefit to EVERYONE involved. We're well aware some people have already designed around the limitations, but there are a LOT of people who haven't even seriously started yet.

I'm particularly interested in hearing specifics of how people think this would provide an unfair advantage to 'rich' teams. I initially had similar thoughts, but after discussing it some we couldn't come up with any specific ways.

Finally, for those of you suggesting just a very limited clarification, can you please suggest some language? Note that 'just allow resistors' won't cut it. For example, what about capacitors that are part of some motors? We've already allowed photo-transistors, so can people use those as 'normal' transistors? Are relays considered switches? What is the definition of a motor? etc. etc. etc.

Normal caveat about this not being the place for official statements / clarifications / etc etc.

I, too, appreciate that you are soliciting comment on this and trust that all of my remarks will be taken in the cooperative spirit in which they are intended.
While most regions in the nation have not run, there have been an awful lot of invitationals so the number of teams with finished devices is not small. More importantly,the fact that a rule change would only be unfair to a minority of teams is not an argument in its favor. My suggested answers:
Relays have traditionally been considered switches in SO.
A motor converts electrical energy to rotational mechanical energy. Solenoids are actuators but not motors. Servos are motors, but are illegal because they include ICs.
A phototransistor is a phototransistor because of what it is, not because of how it is used. If it is a legal component, there is no restriction on use other than safety.
I do not really see a problem with disallowing motors that come with capacitors, because there are plenty cheap ones available that do not. I don't have a problem with allowing them either, though. I would prefer a limited exemption for pre-installed capacitors due to the late date.
You could allow resistors, but honestly I don't even see the need for that. It is true that LEDs are difficult (but not impossible) to use without resistors, but there are lots of other options.

Honestly, the issues you have mentioned so far do not seem anywhere near serious enough to justify a major revision of the rules in February. It will be very difficult for most teams to come anywhere near achieving full points, but I do not see why this should be considered a problem - especially since the size rule will effectively prevent most ties. Are there other issues of more consequence that I am not aware of?

Again, I appreciate all that you do for the organization, and than you for the opportunity for input.

[olympiaddict]

I just can't understand why people are operating under the Black Box Rule when it simply does not exist in the rules. How does that make sense?

[Flavorflav]

That's been discussed on here a lot already - the intermediate step is not visible and therefore not scoreable. There are other justifications as well, but that one seems clearest. Have you had your regional already? If so, did you score all of your extra transfers that you did not build? If not, I think you would be well advised to contact your Event Supervisor.